I've been working on my plans to build in Minnesota - 55020. My builder informed me if I use Panasonic WhisperSense Lite exhaust fans in bathrooms with a shower or tub I will not need a Energy Recovery Ventilator (ERV) system at all, because the bath fans will remove all the humidity. He seemed like a confused dinosaur when I suggested changing to a Heat Recovery Ventilator (HRV)! I'm considering changing builder, over this, a minuscule 26 item spec list, and extremely unrealistic (low) allowances. What do I need to know about ventilation before I talk to the next guy?

I had asked my builder about Zip System sheathing to help seal up the house and spray foam for the higher R values. His bid included neither. My frustration is rising like the national debt!

Unless you specify something different, isn't a builder going to give you code minimum "features"? I recently spent a day at a home show where, as soon as HRV or ERV was mentioned, builders eyes started shifting back and forth like hunted rabbits....

I was explicitly requesting the Panasonic WhisperSense Lite. Why the Panasonic WhisperSense Lite, because my wife never turns the fan on when showering – ever. I’m a big fan of Mike Holmes who first turned me on to their fans – that aren’t carried in any of the big box stores. Since then I’ve heard from a few plumber who recommend them, and This Old House. I have 2 non-sensing Panasonics in my current house – quiet and efficient.

Yes, my builder had the “hunted rabbit” look when I started talking ERV/HRV. The more I ask, the more I’m certain most of the builders are just building the same thing the same way for the past 25 years. They are what is holding back progress of new material and technology in home building.

Are there no progressive builders that will work in your area? There are lots of important details in designing and building a high performance home; a few errors or misunderstandings on the part of a "know-nothing" builder can get you huge problems with moisture and mold among other issues. It is well worth finding a builder familiar with this type of construction to insure a positive building experience and a good home.

You can do all the research and design yourself as others on this forum have done, but don't underestimate the amount of work in doing this, or in managing a builder who has no clue.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 25 Mar 2013 08:43 AM
Unless you specify something different, isn't a builder going to give you code minimum "features"? I recently spent a day at a home show where, as soon as HRV or ERV was mentioned, builders eyes started shifting back and forth like hunted rabbits....

You've described the norm out there. I would state that 95 out of 100 builders have no clue about modern building technology and mechanical ventilation. Change is a four letter word in the building community.

I mentioned mechanical venting in a home and one builder told me they are a waste of money. He said why build a home so air tight that you need to poke a hole in a wall and have a machine waste electricity to vent it. He said he built hundreds of homes and always builds them a little loose so that the walls can breathe. This alleviates having the mechanical venting and saves the homeowner money.

He said he built hundreds of homes and always builds them a little loose so that the walls can breathe.

The nice thing about that is how easy it is to do. Takes little planning or effort on the part of the builder.

Are there no progressive builders that will work in your area?

That's funny, because that is the question I asked of the industry association reps gathered in a booth. Specifically, I asked if there were any builders who built energy-efficient homes and after some initial confusion, and consulting of pamphlets, they proudly directed me to one who had done some EnergyStar homes.

You might try talking to the builders HVAC guy instead of the builder. He is likely to know more about it.

I would suggest looking for energy auditors in your area, and specifically HERS raters; they usually know the builders who are building good homes. Also, check the Passive House US website for Passive House builders or consultants or raters in your area; builders who have taken the time to learn about Passive House understand the techniques necessary to build a tight high performance home. You could also check the energy star website for energy star builders, then question the builders about the HERS ratings they have received on homes they've built. (Ideally look for ratings of under 60). They are out there.

A lot of this will be regional dependent. Some parts of the USA you will find a lot of advanced green builders but in other areas, you will find none. In my area nobody really knows or cares to know on how to build tight, highly insulated homes. They are more interested in granite counter tops and swimming pools.

Local HVAC guys just want to install a "Trane" HRV because that is what they sell, not because it is the better HRV/ERV.

When I proposed to building a green home utilizing newer techniques, I was laughed at by the local builder. His mentality was; why change something if it's not broken? Sadly he does not see that the current method might not be completely "broken" but it is flawed and could be done in a better way. In the end, most contractors don't like change. The older you get, the harder change gets. The biggest buyers and users of smartphones and computers are not 50+ year old people, it is 16-45 year old people.

Posted By Lbear on 27 Mar 2013 07:36 PM
A lot of this will be regional dependent. Some parts of the USA you will find a lot of advanced green builders but in other areas, you will find none. In my area nobody really knows or cares to know on how to build tight, highly insulated homes. They are more interested in granite counter tops and swimming pools.

Local HVAC guys just want to install a "Trane" HRV because that is what they sell, not because it is the better HRV/ERV.

When I proposed to building a green home utilizing newer techniques, I was laughed at by the local builder. His mentality was; why change something if it's not broken? Sadly he does not see that the current method might not be completely "broken" but it is flawed and could be done in a better way. In the end, most contractors don't like change. The older you get, the harder change gets. The biggest buyers and users of smartphones and computers are not 50+ year old people, it is 16-45 year old people.

Really Lbear, you need to show some respect to your elders!! In most places if you can't find someone who knows what you are talking about, look around for some of the best independent custom builders. If they got their rep by paying attention to detail and understanding how to make customers happy, chances are really good that they will build what YOU want. You will have to work with them and point them in the right direction at time, but any builder who has pride in his work will want to up the ante if you give him a chance.

Posted By FBBP on 27 Mar 2013 08:10 PM

Really Lbear, you need to show some respect to your elders!! In most places if you can't find someone who knows what you are talking about, look around for some of the best independent custom builders. If they got their rep by paying attention to detail and understanding how to make customers happy, chances are really good that they will build what YOU want. You will have to work with them and point them in the right direction at time, but any builder who has pride in his work will want to up the ante if you give him a chance.

I think you are overreacting to my statement. It was a factual statement about technology changes and how people in different age groups react to it. I just watched a commercial on TV that was targeting 50+ people with easier to use cell phones. They were selling cell phones with large numbers, easy to use, no smartphone capability, and it was targeted towards 50+ people who just want an easy to use cell phone that makes phone calls.

As far as "custom builders" and getting them to build it the way you want it. If they have no experience in that type of building style there are two huge problems;
1 - They will be learning on your job
2 - They will make you pay, $$$, if they have to use techniques that they don't know, they will make sure they charge you a higher fee for their learning curve

The above was touched on in a different thread but it was about ICF and GC's who had little to no experience with ICF, end up charging $25+ per square foot of wall area.

In the end what happens is that the prospective home builder gets blown out of the water with the high price quotes, so the prospective home builder will either completely back out or just build it with typical building techniques and drop the whole "green" thing.

Posted By Lbear on 27 Mar 2013 08:34 PM

Posted By FBBP on 27 Mar 2013 08:10 PM

Really Lbear, you need to show some respect to your elders!! In most places if you can't find someone who knows what you are talking about, look around for some of the best independent custom builders. If they got their rep by paying attention to detail and understanding how to make customers happy, chances are really good that they will build what YOU want. You will have to work with them and point them in the right direction at time, but any builder who has pride in his work will want to up the ante if you give him a chance.

I think you are overreacting to my statement. It was a factual statement about technology changes and how people in different age groups react to it. I just watched a commercial on TV that was targeting 50+ people with easier to use cell phones. They were selling cell phones with large numbers, easy to use, no smartphone capability, and it was targeted towards 50+ people who just want an easy to use cell phone that makes phone calls.

As far as "custom builders" and getting them to build it the way you want it. If they have no experience in that type of building style there are two huge problems;
1 - They will be learning on your job
2 - They will make you pay, $$$, if they have to use techniques that they don't know, they will make sure they charge you a higher fee for their learning curve

The above was touched on in a different thread but it was about ICF and GC's who had little to no experience with ICF, end up charging $25+ per square foot of wall area.

In the end what happens is that the prospective home builder gets blown out of the water with the high price quotes, so the prospective home builder will either completely back out or just build it with typical building techniques and drop the whole "green" thing.

Yeah - those old guys are pretty stupid! Lets see, there's that hole digging rodent over in Radiant that well heck couldn't be a year over 25, right? The young lad from the east side, who treats us to pearls of wisdom in every forum on this site, well I'm sure his Mummy still thinks he's a little boy. That lad down south, must have retired from teaching at University when he was still in his teens. Then there those boys over in geo. Probably couldn't make a couple of decades out them if you added them all together. "Course I'm pretty sure there is nobody over a building sciences thats a day over 18 either.

A good craftsman is a good craftsman regardless of his knowledge of the particular subject. If he doesn't know, he'll tell you up front. If he isn't interested he'll tell you that too. I know different people have belaboured the point of lack of experience. I didn't say not to use an experienced guy (or gal) if you can get them but I'd just as soon had an old professional who knows nothing then a young airhead who thinks he knows it all.

understanding how to make customers happy, chances are really good that they will build what YOU want.

I'm on the Bear's side, here. They may very well understand how to make customers happy, but the problem is that it's not green building that turns cranks, and when the rare customer wanting something better does come along, it's much easier to redirect them than to learn a new thing. Are there exceptions? Sure. Unfortunately we have recently purged the ranks of builders and demand is increasing such that the rank and file will have plenty of work and less incentive to branch out.

I'd just as soon had an old professional who knows nothing then a young airhead who thinks he knows it all.

I'd value the old guys if they could use some of that experience in working with us noobs to implement new practices, but, alas, they can't, and more importantly, won't. What I really like to see is the young guys who say to me, "I know there's something better than what these old guys are making me do." The future belongs to them.

Yeah - those old guys are pretty stupid! Lets see, there's that hole digging rodent over in Radiant that well heck couldn't be a year over 25, right? The young lad from the east side, who treats us to pearls of wisdom in every forum on this site, well I'm sure his Mummy still thinks he's a little boy. That lad down south, must have retired from teaching at University when he was still in his teens. Then there those boys over in geo. Probably couldn't make a couple of decades out them if you added them all together. "Course I'm pretty sure there is nobody over a building sciences thats a day over 18 either.

A good craftsman is a good craftsman regardless of his knowledge of the particular subject. If he doesn't know, he'll tell you up front. If he isn't interested he'll tell you that too. I know different people have belaboured the point of lack of experience. I didn't say not to use an experienced guy (or gal) if you can get them but I'd just as soon had an old professional who knows nothing then a young airhead who thinks he knows it all.

First, please STOP with the Ad Hominem attacks. I don't know what set you off but I never said older people are "stupid". You are clearly reading into something that is just not there. Secondly, I am not young and I am in the "older" age group myself. I wish I was still in my 20s or 30's but I am not. I am in my 40's. Lastly, this is becoming some type of diatribe and I really don't want to waste the time or energy dealing with your rant.

If you want to discuss these building topics, let's do so. Facts are facts. Most builders who have been building for 20+ years refuse to change their techniques. My cousins and uncles are in the building trades and are some of the largest builders out in their areas. They've built hundreds of homes. I've worked construction sites when I was younger and I deal with builders on a regular basis because of my line of work. Finding a GC to utilize modern techniques is not easy, most will baulk at the idea, others will play along and charge you 3x more and still not do it correctly because they have no experience in the new techniques.

Look at how local building codes are slow to change. Some are still using 2003 IBC/IRC. I've even read of some still using 1997 IBC. Most counties are 10 years behind the current IBC. Even then, they make amendments to the codes to avoid taking them on. They are still sticking in R-13 fiberglass batts in the walls of Phoenix homes and calling that energy efficient.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 27 Mar 2013 10:24 PM

understanding how to make customers happy, chances are really good that they will build what YOU want.

I'm on the Bear's side, here. They may very well understand how to make customers happy, but the problem is that it's not green building that turns cranks, and when the rare customer wanting something better does come along, it's much easier to redirect them than to learn a new thing. Are there exceptions? Sure. Unfortunately we have recently purged the ranks of builders and demand is increasing such that the rank and file will have plenty of work and less incentive to branch out.

I'd just as soon had an old professional who knows nothing then a young airhead who thinks he knows it all.

I'd value the old guys if they could use some of that experience in working with us noobs to implement new practices, but, alas, they can't, and more importantly, won't. What I really like to see is the young guys who say to me, "I know there's something better than what these old guys are making me do." The future belongs to them.

Thank you. I recently sat in on someone wanting to do a high energy wood frame build. The custom home GC had no real experience in this technique and when the homeowner told him what he wanted done, you could see the GC's eyes glaze over in ignorance and dollar signs began to flash. As expected, the homeowner was basically told to get the checkbook out and get ready to write some high dollar checks. The home came in at $175 per sqft. So the 3,000sqft home was budgeted at $525k and that did NOT include the garage or any "extras". Just the wood frame shell, roof, insulation, windows and low end interior finishes. The reasoning the GC gave was that the home required high labor costs due to the attention to sealing around windows and doors. Then he made the insulation (blown in cellulose) request as if it was complicated to blow in cellulose within the walls. The homeowner backed out and he just bought a tract home for have of that quoted amount.

I mentioned this before. I tried to reason with another contractor to just lay down a vapor barrier before he did his slab on grade pour. He refused to do it, he said that it was a waste of money. So he poured the slab on raw bone dry AZ soil and as expected the slab developed substantial cracks. His mentality is that "slabs crack, it's Arizona". The soil is so dry that it will wick the moisture out of concrete so fast that the concrete does not cure properly.

Several contractors had never heard of putting 2" XPS foam sheets on the outside of a home before. They didn't want to do it. Couldn't understand why it was better. One said you couldn't get screws that long, and if you could, it would be too expensive. These are not one-truck "contractors". They have offices and staffs.

BTW, the biologist in me feels compelled to note that badgers are a member of the Mustelid family along with minks, otters and weasels. While they are not rodents, they do include them in their diet.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 28 Mar 2013 01:30 AM
BTW, the biologist in me feels compelled to note that badgers are a member of the Mustelid family along with minks, otters and weasels. While they are not rodents, they do include them in their diet.

Speaking of badgers, look what I captured running across my lot. It's in the lower left corner. It's none other than Mr.Badger:

We gave up trying to build this week. I would have either had to wait until the cold of next winter to get one of the builders using modern methods to come down to my area, or try to teach some "set-in-his-ways" local builder.

The house we were trying to emulate came up for sale, and we bought it. We had hired the same designer that drew the house we wanted to emulate to draw plans for our build. The owner was an HVAC guy who did geothermal with radiant in-floor heat through the whole basement (including the lower Spancrete garage) and living areas upstairs. Only the upper garage and bonus room above that didn't have radiant heat.

I’m guessing the current owner treaded favors for all electrical work, there’s no way I could afford everything he had done. There must be 60 recessed light inside and recessed soffit lights around the entire perimeter of the house. The whole house is wired for sound.

I’ve requested the current owner teach me how to use the mechanicals – there are so many valves and stuff - I’d be lost. I’ve also never owned a geothermal system. I heard from my Realtor that when his Realtor asked him, he got excited to show off his system and he was pretty damn proud of it.

Bear, Bear, Bear
You took a gratuitous swipe at getting older, and I light heartedly called you to account. Would it have been better to put a smiley face behind it? Possible. It is one of the inherit problems of communicating in the written language rather than face to face. No body language.
You than justified your attach on the “elderly” by quoted an ad campaign that pointed out that all people over fifty should have “dummy” phones. At that time I decided to have a little fun at your expense. That was wrong of me and I humbly apologize for it.
However the irony remains. You inferred that older people don’t do or won’t do green or energy efficient homes. Yet when you or any of us have a question, were to we turn? To the Older guys here on GBT (sorry guy’s its not your age that I want to point out but that most of the people leading the energy efficient building parade are older individuals who have adapted quite well, no?) When you yourself want to make a point, your quote some old guy (especially if you think 40 is old) at BS to prove your point. Don’t you think it somewhat ironic that you say old guys can’t change and then turn around and ask them for advice?
Then ICFH chimes in “I'd value the old guys if they could use some of that experience in working with us noobs to implement new practices, but, alas, they can't, and more importantly, won't.” Don’t you think this might be at best a mild insult to the gentlemen I referred to hear on GBT who every week give hours and hours of their time doing just that! Does hardly a day go by without one of them giving information to “you noobs” and anyone else that asks?
Bear – I am sorry if I upset you, it was meant as a lite hearted come back to your attach on the poor old contractors and tradesmen among us and was not meant in a mean spirited way.

But yes lets talk fact. A few months ago I had a plumb all keen about how good and efficient radiant heat was. He put in a descent slab layout in the basement and an ok fan coil for the main. Than he puts in an atmospheric draft “Super Hot” boiler. Yeah go figure. Said the efficiency of the super hot was only a few points under a decent modulating boiler but ¼ the price. He finished his apprenticeship about four years ago. Age has no claim on stupid.

When I refer to custom builder I am referring to one who build a specific home for a specific customer not one who builds fancy homes. When you call he will probably answer the phone himself. His wife probably sends out the bills at the end of the month. He probably has a list of clients waiting for their number to come up and don’t mine waiting because they know he knows his stuff and will stand behind his job. He may no have stacked an ICF wall but probably has decades on experience with concrete. Any professional ICF installer will tell you that it is not the knowledge of the foam that matters much, but the knowledge of the concrete inside the foam. This custom builder will in all likelihood stack the ICF with the same care and precision that he will use when he builds the kitchen cabinets in side the home. The same goes for the Hvac and all other aspects of the building. That’s just the way he does thing. If he’s anal about perfection on all he does know, why would he screw up on something the has to learn.
When you mention some of the biggest builder etc. well that is why I refer to the small independent builder. The other guy’s business model is simply not going to work on much besides track homes. He has a high overhead and needs to turn over sufficient product to make margins on them. He is not set up deal with individual requests.
Also you are in a depressed area as far as building goes so you will get some weird numbers. The low guy will not be making money, he is just try for cash flow or buying himself a job. The high guy if he is three times the money is just saying he doesn’t want your work for any number of reasons but most likely because it doesn’t fit into his business model. If he gets it at that price, well, he’ll make it fit.
You might be amazed but in some areas of the country including here in the Calgary area, simple houses start at 200 a square foot.