New home build and confused
Last Post 08 Jul 2012 12:41 AM by ONEVO. 106 Replies.
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fordracing19User is Offline
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02 Jan 2012 01:40 AM
We have our plan picked out and bid for ICF but the cost is going to be too high so ICF has to go along with finishing the upstairs bonus room and the 3rd garage.
 Specs:
 DFW TX area
2800sqft lower
675sqft upper bonus room
French country plan with steep roof pitches
Not a whole lot of windows.

I was thinking of just 2x6 24"oc with spray foam but after reading awhile that might be a waste of money. I was wanting the fully encapsulated attic so framing the bonus room and adding a mini split later would be an easy thing to do.  We also like lots of recessed can lights.  What stick building and insulation should I be looking at? What attic insulation? The a/c unit and duct work will be in the attic.
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02 Jan 2012 02:14 AM
If you can't swing the ICF, you should find a contractor who can do Advanced Framing for you. With Advanced Framing, you could still get a more efficient shell.
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02 Jan 2012 09:45 AM
What is the exterior of your home?

If it was me and the exterior was brick, I would go with 2x6 walls @ 2' on-center fully wrapped with 7/16 OSB for strength, then 1" of foil faced polyiso foam board insulation over that (joints staggered from OSB joints) with all foam board joints taped and sealed. Then have wet spray applied cellulose blown into the stud cavities. Allow plenty of time for the cellulose to dry before applying drywall. Don't use any vapor barriers on the interior side of the wall. That will give you R20 or better whole wall insulation value at a reasonable cost. Minimize west facing windows or provide awnings or covers to limit summer heat gain.

If at all possible, I would try to at least locate the HVAC unit inside the condition space. Surely you can find a 3'x3' spot somewhere inside the home to install a vertical air handler? If not, suggest framing out a small area in the attic just for the air handler and insulating around that. It will be much less expensive doing that with blown cellulose in the attic than spray foaming the underside of the roof deck, especially considering you have steep roof pitches which means lots of sq ft of roof deck to spray foam. You could easily have twice as much square footage of roof deck as you have in floor/attic space and spray foam easily costs 5 times as much as cellulose per square foot for a given R value and with the large roof deck you may be looking at ~10 times as much cost compared to cellulose. You can get most of the benefits of the spray foam at a fraction of the cost by having them spray the top side of the ceiling board with only ~1" of closed cell foam (at ~$1/sq ft) for air sealing and then blow in ~R38 of loose cellulose on top of that (at ~$1/sq ft).

Duct work, if installed in an unconditioned attic, should be well sealed with a minimum or R6 reflective insulation over the ducts. If you using rigid metal duct work, which I recommend, you might consider having the spray foam applied to the metal duct work at the time the ceiling is sprayed. I have seen that approach used several times in my area. Helps to insure no leaks in the duct work. Also dampens sound.

Since you are in an area that experiences frequent severe thunderstorms and tornadoes, I would also insure that you have a safe room built into one of your lower rooms such as a large walk-in closet over a concrete slab so that it can be properly anchored. FEMA has plans on-line for safe-room designs. One plan that is relatively easily incorporated into a new home uses wood stud walls (double 2x4 at 19.2" on-center) with heavy plywood over the studs and block in-fill for missile protection. Also insure your roof rafters/trusses are securely attached to the walls with metal strapping or hurricane ties.
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02 Jan 2012 09:45 AM
I think that 2x6 plus cellulose and rigid foam is hard to beat. Not so clear on taped XPS vs EPS + building wrap. I do not like the idea of non-vapor permeable foil or plastic covered foam.
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02 Jan 2012 10:37 AM
I have heard it suggested that anything such as ducts that will be sprayed with closed cell polyurethane that might need to be accessed in the future should first be wrapped with 6 mil vinyl so the spray foam can be peeled off without all of the scraping.  But how often are repairs or additions done on ducts?  I can not see how vinyl over metal ducts would hurt anything.  It should not take too long to do and vinyl sheeting is inexpensive in rolls.  Rolls are available in different widths and thickness.
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02 Jan 2012 11:22 AM
It's going to be brick and Austin stone exterior. I have thought of just removing the staircase and putting the hvac unit there and run the ducts in chaises inside the house. Whats the best way to seal over the 40+ can lights? Bummer is the ICF included a FEMA 320 storm room.
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02 Jan 2012 01:05 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 02 Jan 2012 01:40 AM
We have our plan picked out and bid for ICF but the cost is going to be too high so ICF has to go along with finishing the upstairs bonus room and the 3rd garage.
 Specs:
 DFW TX area
2800sqft lower
675sqft upper bonus room
French country plan with steep roof pitches
Not a whole lot of windows.

I was thinking of just 2x6 24"oc with spray foam but after reading awhile that might be a waste of money. I was wanting the fully encapsulated attic so framing the bonus room and adding a mini split later would be an easy thing to do.  We also like lots of recessed can lights.  What stick building and insulation should I be looking at? What attic insulation? The a/c unit and duct work will be in the attic.

How high was the ICF bid? I doubt it was it the typical 5% that is espoused and more like the realistic 15%.+ You would figure that ICF contractors would be more competitive in this economy to compete with wood frame. But apparently not. From what I have heard and read, ICF guys are making their money right now in commercial.


Stay away from uninsulated recessed can lights. They are HORRIBLE when it comes to thermal loss. For every 20 canned lights in the attic ceiling roof, that is equivalent to having an open window up there. They do make INSULATED can lights, try those if you must have can lighting.







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02 Jan 2012 06:40 PM
Posted By Lbear on 02 Jan 2012 01:05 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 02 Jan 2012 01:40 AM
We have our plan picked out and bid for ICF but the cost is going to be too high so ICF has to go along with finishing the upstairs bonus room and the 3rd garage.
 Specs:
 DFW TX area
2800sqft lower
675sqft upper bonus room
French country plan with steep roof pitches
Not a whole lot of windows.

I was thinking of just 2x6 24"oc with spray foam but after reading awhile that might be a waste of money. I was wanting the fully encapsulated attic so framing the bonus room and adding a mini split later would be an easy thing to do.  We also like lots of recessed can lights.  What stick building and insulation should I be looking at? What attic insulation? The a/c unit and duct work will be in the attic.

How high was the ICF bid? I doubt it was it the typical 5% that is espoused and more like the realistic 15%.+ You would figure that ICF contractors would be more competitive in this economy to compete with wood frame. But apparently not. From what I have heard and read, ICF guys are making their money right now in commercial.


Stay away from uninsulated recessed can lights. They are HORRIBLE when it comes to thermal loss. For every 20 canned lights in the attic ceiling roof, that is equivalent to having an open window up there. They do make INSULATED can lights, try those if you must have can lighting.








Well the thing is the bids are apples to oranges. The ICF bid still has the 3rd car garage on it. Im thinking  8% over 2x6 and spray foam that the other builder quoted. What a hassle and we haven't broke ground yet. It gives me a headache. LOL
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02 Jan 2012 08:25 PM
You only got one ICF bid?
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02 Jan 2012 09:07 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 02 Jan 2012 06:40 PM

Well the thing is the bids are apples to oranges. The ICF bid still has the 3rd car garage on it. Im thinking  8% over 2x6 and spray foam that the other builder quoted. What a hassle and we haven't broke ground yet. It gives me a headache. LOL

Why are you building instead of buying an already built home?

Building your own home can be a nightmare or a labor-of-love, depending on how you approach it and what type of contractor you have working for you.

A lot of contractors are not trust-worthy, IMO. Everyone needs to make money but some contractors take advantage of owners. For example, one ICF contractor who was also going to be the General Contractor, he sub-contracted the stucco and priced it at the SAME EXACT price that a wood-framed home stucco job cost. It would have slipped by the homeowner but he caught it. The homeowner called out the stucco guy himself and bid out how much it was to put 2" of EPS and stucco the home. He then asked the stucco guy if the home already had 2" of EPS on the home (hence what an ICF home already has), how much LESS the bid would be. The stucco guy said that not having to put the EPS on the home saves him LABOR & MATERIAL COST by $5,000. The ICF contractor was pocketing the $5,000 plus up-charging another 10% onto the bid for being the GC.

When the GC is calling out subs to do the work(electrical, plumbing, drywall, etc), the GC is making 10% on the each job they sub, which is part of the deal of being GC. Where some of them go bad is when they are ripping people off by lying on the bids. With an ICF home you already have 2.5" of EPS on the exterior. The stucco bid of an ICF home should be LOWER than that of the exact same type OSB wood framed home because the stucco guy doesn't need to put 2.5" of EPS on the home.
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02 Jan 2012 09:12 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 02 Jan 2012 08:25 PM
You only got one ICF bid?

The problem is that some areas only have ONE or maybe TWO ICF installers. In the area I am in, there are only 4 ICF installers, 2 of them only dabble in it, so in reality you only have TWO experienced ICF installers.


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02 Jan 2012 09:29 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 02 Jan 2012 08:25 PM
You only got one ICF bid?

Yes, just one bid. We looked at over 60 homes before deciding to buy 11 acres and build. We built our last house in 2004 and contracted it out ourselves. The wifes uncle was a local framer and knew all the other trades.
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02 Jan 2012 10:25 PM
Go to the ICF forum on here and see if any of them are in your area. I think there is. You really need to get several quotes.
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02 Jan 2012 11:07 PM

Basic layout of the house. 3rd car garage will be gone and study is increasing to 12x20 for a media room.
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02 Jan 2012 11:09 PM
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02 Jan 2012 11:34 PM
there are only 4 ICF installers, 2 of them only dabble in it, so in reality you only have TWO experienced ICF installers.
So, who wants to do it the most? There were only three possibilities in my area, too. Once you get the bids, you need to talk with them and ask "What can we do to get the price down any more?"
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03 Jan 2012 07:47 AM
This is a beautiful house but I think there will be a lot of money tied up in the roof.  Be sure that the rafters/trusses are tied well to the walls.  A tall roof like this will have to withstand a lot of wind pressure.  Closed cell spray foam would also help glue the rafters/trusses to the roof decking.

You would have even more usable space under the roof if the roof was built without rafters/trusses.  You might want to consider some type of paneled roof such as SIPS or SCIPS.  I know of a SCIP company that covers the Southeast but I do not know if they will go as far as your location.
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03 Jan 2012 10:14 AM
With a custom home, you have the perpetual problem of a one-time amateur (the owner) dealing with professionals who do it every day. The pros come out ahead. Plus now we have the problem of the market price being 30% less than the cost to build.

How will you structure the contract(s) with the GC or subs?



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03 Jan 2012 12:16 PM
Alton is right- independent of wall construction type, the roof will be a big expense, and will be a large performance variable. The more dormers & valleys the greater the framing fraction, and the harder it is to air- seal, reducing the thermal performance of the roof, which appears to be the vast majority of the exterior surface area. Siting & orienting it for minimal solar gain at the roof can make a large difference in cooling-season performance. Panelized systems with low bridging, better air tightness, and thermal mass will make a real difference here. (Do they make ICF roofs? :-) )
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03 Jan 2012 12:44 PM
Dana. What if I did the 1" cc foam then piled then piled the celluolse on top while moving the hvac into interior soffits and an equipment closet?
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03 Jan 2012 02:11 PM

jonr,

Right on all accounts.  It really is worse than trading for a new automobile since there is so much money involved.  At least with automobiles, we have some help from the internet with the prices.

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03 Jan 2012 02:14 PM
Dana1,

Yes, some ICF contractors make ICF roofs such as Lite-Deck, Insul-deck, Quad-Deck, etc.  Also WRCS and Met-Rock Envirolast do roofs.  Dana1, I suspect that you already know this but you may be asking if the local ICF contractors do roofs.
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03 Jan 2012 02:40 PM
Posted By jonr on 03 Jan 2012 10:14 AM
With a custom home, you have the perpetual problem of a one-time amateur (the owner) dealing with professionals who do it every day. The pros come out ahead. Plus now we have the problem of the market price being 30% less than the cost to build.

How will you structure the contract(s) with the GC or subs?




With a custom home one still needs to hire a GC. The owner does not have to deal with the professionals because the GC will handle them. That is what the GC gets paid for.


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03 Jan 2012 02:42 PM
Alton- I've actually yet to see an ICF roof installed in my area, and was only vaguely aware that such systems existed in the "real world" of single-family residential construciton (thanks!). If they're having problems finding local contractors up for doing wall systems out of ICF, it seems even less likely that they'll find someone up to speed on ICF roofing systems.

fordracing19: If you're talking about a vented roof system with 1" of cc foam as the air seal at the attic floor and heaping up R50 cellulose, while moving the mechanicals & ductwork completely inside the insulation & air-pressure boundary yes, that can perform pretty well even with complicated roof lines. But the pictures seem to show a dormered-out 1-1/2 story, which means you'd have a kneewall sealing & insulating problem as well. Keeping the roof & wall lines relatively simple reduces the chances that it'll leak (air or water.)

It doesn't need to be a single-gabled right-rectangular prism or a cube, but the recent trend toward multiple gables of differing bump outs & setbacks, with mirroring roof lines and valleys may look great in drawings, but they are a headache to build and build-well, and tend to detract from performance and long term reliability. Too many intersecting planes increases the chances of something leaking, and adds considerably to the framing complexity. (On the front view I see no fewer than NINE different valleys (and that's counting the shed-dormer at zero.)
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03 Jan 2012 02:45 PM
Posted By jonr on 03 Jan 2012 10:14 AM
With a custom home, you have the perpetual problem of a one-time amateur (the owner) dealing with professionals who do it every day. The pros come out ahead. Plus now we have the problem of the market price being 30% less than the cost to build.

How will you structure the contract(s) with the GC or subs?




With a custom home one still needs to hire a GC. The owner does not have to deal with the professionals because the GC will handle them. That is what the GC gets paid for.

Here in AZ one can buy a 3,800 sq.ft. home, completely finished with high end finishes, less than 4 years old, for $65 sq.ft. ($247k) - This includes the lot cost and garage costs (3 car). One CANNOT build such a home for $65 sq.ft., even if they did all the labor themselves. Replacement costs for such a home is $110 sq.ft. ($418K). Here is where the big disconnect occurs. That is why it is cheaper to buy a built home vs. building a new home. That is why nobody is really building new custom homes.

The custom home builders have to become competitive or find a different source for their business (commercial, tract homes).

There is A LOT of "fat" when it comes to home bids. Years ago I took a set of plans to a three different GC's. This was for a wood frame home, the bids ranged from $90 sq.ft. - $125 sq.ft. - $175 sq.ft.   Remember, theses bids included the same exact finishes. The GC is making a profit at $90 sq.ft., so then the $175 sq.ft. GC is making double profit. You are taking about $255,000 difference in building price.








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03 Jan 2012 02:49 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 02 Jan 2012 11:09 PM

With such a home you are looking at making the roofing/truss company VERY happy. This is not an easy roof to assemble. Are you not in tornado country? I don't think this roof design is conducive to an area with hail and high winds.

It's a nice home but was this home chosen from an on-line home design catalog? It wasn't a custom designed home by an architect JUST FOR YOU, correct?
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04 Jan 2012 02:49 AM
Posted By Lbear on 03 Jan 2012 02:49 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 02 Jan 2012 11:09 PM

With such a home you are looking at making the roofing/truss company VERY happy. This is not an easy roof to assemble. Are you not in tornado country? I don't think this roof design is conducive to an area with hail and high winds.

It's a nice home but was this home chosen from an on-line home design catalog? It wasn't a custom designed home by an architect JUST FOR YOU, correct?
Correct. It  is an online plan with many changes. The roof pitch will be knocked down some since not doing the 2nd story.

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04 Jan 2012 05:30 AM
Not doing the second story will certainly bring the roof more into human scale.  Please post the revised image when you have the roof lowered.
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04 Jan 2012 09:05 AM
That is why nobody is really building new custom homes.
Where I live, custom homes represent a much greater proportion of what is being built than ever before. By definition, "custom" means to the owners liking and whether you are talking about features or quality of construction, it's nearly impossible to find that on the market right now, no matter how glutted it is. There are a large number of empty homes that changed hands in the $700K-$800K range, (sometimes more than once) that are now languishing at $400K. They might have granite in them but they are neither custom nor quality.
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04 Jan 2012 10:36 AM
Not that it is my business, but I think it will look better with a smaller and simpler roof. If you really want something specific and price/resale isn't much of an issue, then custom makes sense.
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04 Jan 2012 03:34 PM
Modifying existing architectural plans sometimes cost just as much as starting from scratch. If you don't want to pay for an architect to design your home which usually costs around 10%-15% of the homes value. Hire a CAD draftsman which usually costs $2 per sq.ft but realize that a draftsman is not a trained architect but if you want a simple home, they can do the job.

Remember, many of these plans on-line are just usually leftover plans from some type of cookie cutter subdivision tract home design. They license them to sell the rights to the plans. I've seen A LOT of poorly laid out home plans. Many of these homes emphasize "curb appeal", meaning they want to grab your attention from the outside but lack functionality and energy conservation. A huge roof like that does nothing but add to roofing costs and long-term maintenance. I guarantee you that the majority of costs in that home will go toward the truss company and the roofers.

It all depends on what YOU want. Cost, simplicity, efficiency, looks, all will play a part but NEVER go on looks alone because it will cost $$$ you in the end.

A roof like that might actually fair OK in a hurricane zone because of its steep pitch it will cause stalling/turbulence and subsequent down force, which is better than lift. Here is the scientific article on it:

Roof Pitch


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04 Jan 2012 11:52 PM
A different builder is working on the plans now. I hope to have a bid in a few days. The big roof will be gone. I'm hoping he can get the hvac in the living space. Is it pointless to have the unit inside and the supply in the attic?
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05 Jan 2012 02:18 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 04 Jan 2012 11:52 PM
A different builder is working on the plans now. I hope to have a bid in a few days. The big roof will be gone. I'm hoping he can get the hvac in the living space. Is it pointless to have the unit inside and the supply in the attic?

For an energy efficient home the HVAC duct work MUST be within the "thermal envelope" of the home.  If the ducts and air handler sit in the attic above the insulation, they basically are sitting outside, as they are exposed to the outside air temps. Think about the ducts sitting up there in 100F+ heat and 10F cold. Plus ALL ducts will leak, some more than others. So instead of leaking into the insulated part of the home, which is good, they leak into the uninsulated part which is like opening a window and letting the heat and cold out.

They estimate that having the HVAC duct work and air handler OUTSIDE of the thermal envelope of the home will cost you around 20%-30% more in annual energy costs vs. placing them inside the thermal envelope.

If you don't have the space in the attic have them design an interior room/closet that can house these items. Run the duct work within interior walls. Builders love placing the equipment in the attic because it saves them interior space and it is easy for them to run the lines. Out of sight, out of mind, but you will see the results of this poor engineering in your pocket book.


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05 Jan 2012 03:40 PM
Lbear,

I agree.  Well stated in understandable terms.
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05 Jan 2012 10:20 PM
lbear....how do you run ducts in the inside walls? I live in a ranch with the ducts in the attic, air hand in closet. How would I run ducts in the walls?
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06 Jan 2012 02:08 AM
Posted By robinnc on 05 Jan 2012 10:20 PM
lbear....how do you run ducts in the inside walls? I live in a ranch with the ducts in the attic, air hand in closet. How would I run ducts in the walls?

Here is some info:

DuctsInside.org

Go to benefits & case studies where they retrofired duct work to within the thermal envelope of the home and observed 20%-30% reduction in annual heating/cooling costs.
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06 Jan 2012 09:23 AM
I'm building a home in which everything is inside the thermal shell of the building. That necessitates constructing chases and "soffits" around the ducting.

A number of contractors have stopped by to look and it is interesting that at least two have assumed we will be pushing those areas "outside" the shell by moving insulation from the outside to the inside of the new walls. That's how pervasive the idea and tradition of having the ducting "outside" is.
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06 Jan 2012 04:08 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Jan 2012 09:23 AM
I'm building a home in which everything is inside the thermal shell of the building. That necessitates constructing chases and "soffits" around the ducting.

A number of contractors have stopped by to look and it is interesting that at least two have assumed we will be pushing those areas "outside" the shell by moving insulation from the outside to the inside of the new walls. That's how pervasive the idea and tradition of having the ducting "outside" is.

Yep, I talked to a contractor and told him about putting the duct work INSIDE the home and not in the attic. He turned to me and said, "Why would you want to do that?"

I believe most contractors out there are at least 5-10 years "behind the times" when it comes to this stuff. Unless it is forced upon them OR it saves them $$$$, they usually don't care about it.


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06 Jan 2012 06:17 PM
Maybe use open web trusses for the floor joists and put ducts there.
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06 Jan 2012 10:16 PM
Thanks Lbear, I'll go back and read that!
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07 Jan 2012 09:17 AM
Unless it is forced upon them OR it saves them $$$$, they usually don't care about it.
Exactly. That is why I am acting as the GC on my custom build.

Generally speaking, it is a choice of arguing with your GC or arguing with the subs about issues. What I have found is that GC's have NO interest in Green Building. In most cases, they don't intend to employ Green methods and they aren't interested unless it saves money or time on their future projects. The Subs have had a bit more curiosity about new/green methods. Probably because they perceive that it might make them more "hireable" in the future.

What is really surprising is the number of GCs who will stop by and volunteer all the things they DON'T do on their builds (waterproofing, footing drainage, sealing, etc.), even IF it is on the plans or required. It makes you even happier that you didn't hire them.
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07 Jan 2012 12:21 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 07 Jan 2012 09:17 AM

Exactly. That is why I am acting as the GC on my custom build.


I could never be my own GC because I don't have enough experience in the field to deal with everything that comes at you. It's above my "pay grade".
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07 Jan 2012 12:59 PM
How about a "Construction Manager"? They handle the business items, many of which help forestall issues in the field. Leaves you free to make sure the build comes out the way you want it. And, they are a pretty good resource for questions that arise.
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07 Jan 2012 10:18 PM
lbear and anybody else....I still don't see  how to put the ducts in the inside walls. That web site you posted lbear, it shows the main trunk going down the middle of the house. Where does that get hidden? Also, it shows the main line with extensions going into each room. HVAC contractors never put the vents on the inside walls, always above a window or an outside door. My visual is seeing boxes on the sides of the walls at the ceiling edge covering up all this duct work all over the house. What I'm I missing?  The inside roof consists of sheetrock, ceiling trusses, insulation. The walls are 2x4. Where would all these ducts run??
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07 Jan 2012 10:52 PM

Robinnc,

Are you asking a question about how ducts are installed inside a wall or if the supply vents will be located near an inside wall.  The only ducts that I know that ever get installed inside a wall is the high pressure type that consists of very small lines.  But most of the time these small lines are not in the walls.  They are usually in the ceiling about 18" out from the exterior wall.

Some HVAC installers will install supply vents in a room near the inside walls if the house is super-insulated and the rooms are not too large.  I agree, most HVAC installers will insist on supplying air to the exterior walls by placing supply vents under or over windows, etc.

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07 Jan 2012 11:20 PM
Posted By Alton on 07 Jan 2012 10:52 PM

Robinnc,

Are you asking a question about how ducts are installed inside a wall or if the supply vents will be located near an inside wall.  The only ducts that I know that ever get installed inside a wall is the high pressure type that consists of very small lines.  But most of the time these small lines are not in the walls.  They are usually in the ceiling about 18" out from the exterior wall.

Some HVAC installers will install supply vents in a room near the inside walls if the house is super-insulated and the rooms are not too large.  I agree, most HVAC installers will insist on supplying air to the exterior walls by placing supply vents under or over windows, etc.


Alton, I've been walking around in my house over the last 2 days trying to see where these ducts would go unseen. I can't see anywhere they could go. You're right about the super insulated and smaller rooms would probably not need the vents on the outside walls. My house is on a slab so sealed crawl space is out of the question. I can see where someone had a ranch and sealed crawl space(which is very uncommon) would be easy to have the duct work in a condition space. Just can't see how the duct work would be invisible in a conventional house?
I see you work at Auburn? My wife's brother works there also.
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08 Jan 2012 08:17 AM
Robinnc,

Typically, the ducts are installed in the attic of a one-storey home built on a slab.  Of course, the best situation is that the attic be sealed and insulated.  If the attic is not sealed and insulated, then I think spraying the ducts with closed cell foam would be almost as good.  Consider wrapping the ducts with 6 mil vinyl before spraying just in case repairs every need to be made.

Retrofitting a two-storey home on a slab can be a difficult and messy job if ducts are used.

One way to condition a home without a space for ducts is to install a ductless system such as Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Daikin, LG.  Space for small refrigerant lines can usually be found in the ceiling or wall.  Fan/coils mounted on the exterior walls can have the condensate piped directly to the exterior.  Some brands with ceiling mounts will require a very small pump to lift the condensate about 18" so it will drain to the exterior.

I retired from teaching in the School of Architecture at Auburn in 2004.  My wife retired from Auburn at the end of last year from Information Technology.  Now I have to learn to share my office in our home.  Fortunately, we have two computers and two printers and one scanner to be shared.  Between the two of us, we know a lot of people at the university.  My wife and I have helped many people while in our careers at Auburn.  If your brother has been at Auburn very long, then we may also know him.  What department is he in?  Personal things like this can be sent to my e-mail address.  That would also keep us from hijacking this thread.
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08 Jan 2012 12:27 PM
Return ducts in interior walls are common. I'm looking at a few right now.

> Of course, the best situation is that the attic be sealed and insulated

IMO, perhaps not the entire attic area, but the area where the ducts are should be fully insulated and vented to the interior. Special truss designs (think attic truss with very small attic(s)) could facilitate this.

What you don't want:
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08 Jan 2012 12:33 PM
Posted By jonr on 08 Jan 2012 12:27 PM
Return ducts in interior walls are common. I'm looking at a few right now.

> Of course, the best situation is that the attic be sealed and insulated

IMO, perhaps not the entire attic, but the area where the ducts are should be fully insulated and vented to the interior.

That was one thing I wondered about with the ducting inside. We are meeting with the builder at 1 and will see what he can up with and can get in our budget.
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08 Jan 2012 01:48 PM
What about burying uninsulated ducting in the attic ceiling insulation? Is that allowed?

With values of R-49 in the coldest locales, the ducts would be well buried where they ran parallel with the trusses and runs that were perpendicular could cross over where the roof is low and one could just plan to fill up the cavity there, like a chase.
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08 Jan 2012 03:01 PM
I have buried ducts in cellulose insulation but they were wrapped with aluminum foil fiberglass bat insulation.  I would be afraid that condensation could happen if the ducts were not wrapped before burying and the cellulose could get wet and lose its effectiveness.
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08 Jan 2012 04:30 PM
Looks like we will be building with 2x6 with r19 batts with thermo ply and 1" foam board on the exterior. This is what fits my budget. The ac unit will be in a closet in the conditioned space. Still working on getting the ducts in the interior.
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08 Jan 2012 07:33 PM
It is time for architects to start drawing utility chases into homes.

Commercial buildings already have shafts and, in some cases, entire floors or half floors devoted to duct and utilities.

I've seen a number of new green homes recently in which running the utilities properly was a real problem.

  Are any of you archies aware of any movement in this direction?
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08 Jan 2012 08:11 PM
As an architect I can tell you that any decent architect will plan for mechanical equipment space and distribution runs (whether that's pipe of duct) from day one. I will agree that not all architects are on board with keeping all the ducts within the conditioned space.

One issue is that very few house designs have an architect on board from day one.

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08 Jan 2012 08:51 PM
As an architect I can tell you that any decent architect will plan for mechanical equipment space and distribution runs (whether that's pipe of duct) from day one
Okay, that's a bit confusing because I've just looked at three green homes (including mine) all conceived and drawn by award-winning architects and all required some real gymnastics to run utilities, including the addition of interior chases and soffits. All those big beams they like stopped you wherever you wanted to go. It's also complicated by not wanting to violate the thermal envelope in a "Green" home.
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08 Jan 2012 10:45 PM
My experience has been that no thought is given to installing HVAC ducts until the house is almost completely framed.  I have been asked to design utility space for only one home.  Builders are so used to installing ducts in an unisulated attic or in the crawl space that they see no need to ask for a drawing showing how the large ducts will be installed.  I have seen several homes that had to give up some closet space for a large return duct.
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08 Jan 2012 11:24 PM
Jonr.....that's exactly what my attic looks like.....
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09 Jan 2012 12:32 AM
The ac unit will be in a closet in the conditioned space.
Are you worried about noise at all?
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09 Jan 2012 01:42 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 09 Jan 2012 12:32 AM
The ac unit will be in a closet in the conditioned space.
Are you worried about noise at all?

No. If you look at the layout it will be where the utility room is. Since the stairs are gone we have room for it there.
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09 Jan 2012 09:09 AM
Posted By Alton on 08 Jan 2012 08:17 AM
Robinnc,

If the attic is not sealed and insulated, then I think spraying the ducts with closed cell foam would be almost as good. 
Manual D and municipal codes have very specific requirements for duct insulation. One would have to be careful their spray on foam met flame spread requirements et al.
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09 Jan 2012 09:15 AM
Posted By Alton on 08 Jan 2012 10:45 PM
My experience has been that no thought is given to installing HVAC ducts until the house is almost completely framed.  I have been asked to design utility space for only one home.  Builders are so used to installing ducts in an unisulated attic or in the crawl space that they see no need to ask for a drawing showing how the large ducts will be installed.  I have seen several homes that had to give up some closet space for a large return duct.
Agreed.
It is amazing how little forthought people put into conditioning their new homes. What good is it if you are not comfortable?

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09 Jan 2012 02:44 PM
Smaller ducts require less space and can reduce the cost of the job.  However, if you can hear the HVAC system running from almost every room in the house, then you can bet that the system has undersized ducts.  You can also bet that the system is not very efficient.  Properly sized ducts and a couple of easy 90° turns in the large supply duct will do wonders to quieten the system.  Finding so many homes with undersized ducts makes me want to specify only multi-mini-splits to avoid ducts altogether.
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09 Jan 2012 07:32 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 09 Jan 2012 12:32 AM
The ac unit will be in a closet in the conditioned space.
Are you worried about noise at all?

One can always frame the interior walls surrounding that closet in dense sound proof material. It's easy to do WHEN building, it basically becomes a sound proof room. 
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09 Jan 2012 07:36 PM
Lbear,

You are right about sound proofing the HVAC closet.  That will help.  However, it will not do much to quieten the noise if the ducts are too small and do not have some turns in them.  Noisy ducts would happen less often if installers used Manual D to size the ducts and then applied tried and true rules of design.
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09 Jan 2012 10:05 PM
I may be in a minority, buy I like the white noise. Which is one of a few reasons I leave the furnace fan on 24/7.
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09 Jan 2012 10:14 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 09 Jan 2012 10:05 PM
I may be in a minority, buy I like the white noise. Which is one of a few reasons I leave the furnace fan on 24/7.
With mechanical ventilation in an ICF home, doesn't a fan ran all the time bringing in outside air or is it set on some sort of timer?
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09 Jan 2012 11:08 PM
A little white noise is ok but having to turn up the TV when the fan comes on is what I am talking about.
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09 Jan 2012 11:13 PM

I believe some HVAC systems bring in fresh air for about 5 minutes each hour.  This may vary for some homes in different climates.  As a rule, we think of introducing fresh air only into homes that are tightly built.

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10 Jan 2012 12:11 AM
Posted By Alton on 09 Jan 2012 11:13 PM

I believe some HVAC systems bring in fresh air for about 5 minutes each hour.  This may vary for some homes in different climates.  As a rule, we think of introducing fresh air only into homes that are tightly built.


Having a decent amount of indoor plants would help with providing cleaner air and oxygen in a tightly built home. One would be surprised on how indoor plants help.

How much heating/cooling is lost with bringing in outside unconditioned air every hour?

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10 Jan 2012 01:46 AM
How much heating/cooling is lost with bringing in outside unconditioned air every hour?
Minimal heat is lost when you use an HRV/ERV - "Heat Recovery Ventilator" or "Energy Recovery Ventilator". My engineers gave me a starting point to run about 20 min of each hour.
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10 Jan 2012 01:41 PM
Make the utility room out of concrete and it can double as a safe room (and stop some noise).
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10 Jan 2012 03:35 PM
Does thermo ply stop air infiltration?
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10 Jan 2012 03:35 PM
Does thermo ply stop air infiltration?
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11 Jan 2012 03:40 AM
Final plan.
www.mediafire.com/?tc1kmx4rqwmq1ty
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11 Jan 2012 02:23 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 11 Jan 2012 03:40 AM
Final plan.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tc1kmx4rqwmq1ty

The link does NOT work.
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11 Jan 2012 03:05 PM
Posted By Lbear on 11 Jan 2012 02:23 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 11 Jan 2012 03:40 AM
Final plan.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tc1kmx4rqwmq1ty

The link does NOT work.

Just have to copy paste it. Im not too computer savvy.
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12 Jan 2012 04:05 AM
Posted By Alton on 09 Jan 2012 11:13 PM

I believe some HVAC systems bring in fresh air for about 5 minutes each hour.  This may vary for some homes in different climates.  As a rule, we think of introducing fresh air only into homes that are tightly built.


One GC that I talked to yesterday is NOT a big fan of tight homes. He thought it was sort of futile to build a tight home and then have to bring in outside air every hour.
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12 Jan 2012 08:39 AM
Perhaps because he doesn't understand heat recovery.
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12 Jan 2012 09:34 AM
Posted By jonr on 10 Jan 2012 01:41 PM
Make the utility room out of concrete and it can double as a safe room (and stop some noise).


Houses with basements, we usually have a safe room under the front stoop or porch, rather than fill it with dirt.
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12 Jan 2012 10:06 AM
Perhaps he also does not understand that the air we breathe should be flitered first.  Perhaps he does not understand how to build a house tight and then ventilate it right.
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12 Jan 2012 10:17 AM
Perhaps he does not understand how to build a house tight and then ventilate it right.
He's probably not the only one. Here are the first two quotes from "old school" contractors who have seen my build since the ducting was in;

"I thought this wasn't supposed to have a furnace..."

"All that for just AIR??"
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12 Jan 2012 10:36 AM
Fordracing, ICFs should add no more than 5% to the build cost.
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12 Jan 2012 10:58 AM
Whatever the "ICF premium" is, I'm beginning to suspect that it could be much smaller with homes that are designed for ICF in the first place. Some of that extra cost we talk about now must certainly come from trying to make existing home plans fit ICF construction.

An architect or designer experienced in ICF could give you original designs that include amenities such as insulated walls or soundproofing or structural features that would squeeze down the cost gap between ICF and conventional construction.
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12 Jan 2012 11:01 AM
I am of the opinion that one should not even go out for quotes until the home has been designed for the intended technology.   If the designer used a good software program, then it certainly does not take very long to alter a plan to fit the technology.  At least that has been my experience.
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12 Jan 2012 11:35 AM
If the designer used a good software program, then it certainly does not take very long to alter a plan to fit the technology.
Alton, I think that CAN happen, but what I am talking about is archies and designers who design to fit the strengths of the product in the first place as opposed to porting something over. Designs made with ICF in mind will almost certainly be able to reduce that ICF premium.
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12 Jan 2012 04:33 PM
Posted By Alton on 12 Jan 2012 10:06 AM
Perhaps he also does not understand that the air we breathe should be flitered first.  Perhaps he does not understand how to build a house tight and then ventilate it right.

I don't understand his logic. If a home is built non-tight, the home is constantly leaking in outside air, 24 hours a day, more so on windy days. So no mechanical air is required because the home is constantly leaking in air. If a home is built tight, then it does not leak outside air and needs mechanical ventilation to bring in fresh air. I would rather bring in mechanical fresh air for 5 minutes every hour and have a tight home vs. having a leaky home without mechanical air.

I guess he thinks that the building a tight home with mechanical air intake offsets building a very tight home because it's like opening a window to bring in fresh air. Plus the costs to run the fan 24 hours a day.
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12 Jan 2012 04:38 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 12 Jan 2012 10:36 AM
Fordracing, ICFs should add no more than 5% to the build cost.

I have a hard time believeing that. Everyone I have talked to and from my own personal experience, it is more like 15% or even higher.

Nothing against you, but I believe the 5% is a sales technique to get a person "in the door". Like the car sales lot that displays an AD stating that you can buy a new car for $10,000. When you walk into the dealership looking for this $10k car, it's not available, BUT they can get you into a similar car for $15k.




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12 Jan 2012 04:48 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 12 Jan 2012 10:58 AM
Whatever the "ICF premium" is, I'm beginning to suspect that it could be much smaller with homes that are designed for ICF in the first place. Some of that extra cost we talk about now must certainly come from trying to make existing home plans fit ICF construction.

An architect or designer experienced in ICF could give you original designs that include amenities such as insulated walls or soundproofing or structural features that would squeeze down the cost gap between ICF and conventional construction.

Herein lies the problem with aesthetics vs. cost. The lowest cost ICF home would be a rectangular box with a few holes in it for windows, throw in some decorative faux stuff on the outside and call it a day. Yet, people don't want to live in rectangular boxes. So homes are designed with angles and other features which then the builder tells you to get the check book ready.

Tract homes are designed for curb appeal and cheapest construction cost. Custom homes are a different animal. Depending on the architect, one can design for cost efficiency, energy savings, aesthetics, functionality, or a little of all of those.

Most people don't use an architect because of the costs involved. On a $300k home, you are looking at 10%-15% of the costs for an architect, so around $30k - $45k for their services. That is why most people will go with a pre-drawn plan from an on-line source that has thousands of designs to chose from. Or they might go with a draftsman who typically charges $1-$3 sq.ft. but let's not forget that a draftsman is not a licensed and schooled architect.


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12 Jan 2012 07:16 PM
The icf guy was priced in line with a few of the stick builders. We signed our contract yesterday and I feel we are getting a great deal. Kitchen and baths will have granite, living is handscraped hardwood, and 2x6 construction for less than $80 sq ft living.
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12 Jan 2012 09:13 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 12 Jan 2012 07:16 PM
The icf guy was priced in line with a few of the stick builders. We signed our contract yesterday and I feel we are getting a great deal. Kitchen and baths will have granite, living is handscraped hardwood, and 2x6 construction for less than $80 sq ft living.

What was the cheapest ICF quote you got? $100 sqft?

$80 sqft is about the price out here in AZ for 2x6 construction with modest interior upgrades. Granite is pretty "standard" for homes today. Granite has become so inexpensive as it is barged over from China in huge quantities. One can get granite cheap if they CUT OUT the middle man (tile stores). They mark the stuff up SO MUCH that it is ridiculous.

For me, nice real wood touches inside really softens a home and gives it a cozy feeling.

Were you able to get them to install the duct work INSIDE the thermal envelope?
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12 Jan 2012 09:22 PM
How comes out to $102 but didn't have granite with undermounts in the baths or the hand scraped floor.
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12 Jan 2012 09:45 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 12 Jan 2012 09:22 PM
How comes out to $102 but didn't have granite with undermounts in the baths or the hand scraped floor.

So ICF was basically 20%-25% more in costs than 2x6 wood. Sounds about right, maybe a little high, if there was a good ICF builder he might have been able to do it for 15% more instead of 20%+. Like I said before, all that I read and the quotes I got, it was around 15%+ more with ICF. That 5%-8% number is a pipe dream. Maybe if you are best friends or your brother-in-law runs an ICF company, you can see that 5% but otherwise it is more realistically at 15% more than wood.

3,000 sqft home/ 2x6 wood = $240K
3,000 sqft home/ ICF = $285K

For me, the granite stuff is not as important. I know I can go to a granite yard and get it for cost and then just pay to have it finished. Probably save myself 50% vs. going through a 3rd middle-man granite distributor.


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12 Jan 2012 10:04 PM

Herein lies the problem with aesthetics vs. cost. The lowest cost ICF home would be a rectangular box with a few holes in it for windows, throw in some decorative faux stuff on the outside and call it a day. Yet, people don't want to live in rectangular boxes. So homes are designed with angles and other features which then the builder tells you to get the check book ready.
I  don't necessarily agree with the above statement.  Designing a house for ICF is a great idea and here are a few reasons why:

Short walls with Corners (or small bump outs) are a pain in ICF.  Bumping a wall out for a foot might make for a nice  break in a long wall, but it's hard to configure blocks, there's waste, and there's likely a vertical seem that will need additional reinforcement.

If you know the length of the block you are working with, designing walls to make full use of the block makes it quicker to stack and obviously produces less waste.

Using windows that fall between the block dimensions so "notching" the block to accept window bucks isn't required or requires less work (ie cutting through webs).

Realizing a wall is going to be 11-1/4" or 13-1/4" thick ahead of time, so rooms that are marginally small don't get smaller.

Angles and corners are easy to do, so long is they aren't too short.

Window and door bucks take a ton of time, so using windows that make full use of the lumber would make sense.  Plus, getting rid of narrow windows that loose their effect with deep sills.  On the original plan, some of the windows look like they start at the bottom of the wall.  I've never quite understood the concept of that.  I would raise the sill so  you have at least one block height worth of sill.

Looking at the revised plan, a design like FordRacings is actually pretty simple (except for the small bumps that I mentioned).  I did notice that a few rooms would suffer from the thicker block.  I would also recommend that the Jack and Jill bathroom between the two rooms be moved to a single hall bath, then make a small closet for the top right bedroom in the space saved in the bathroom, then take that original bedroom closet and make it the pantry, and finally make the room labeled pantry a larger utility room.
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12 Jan 2012 10:26 PM
Should be $225k vs $280k
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12 Jan 2012 10:47 PM
The lowest cost ICF home would be a rectangular box with a few holes in it for windows,
Well, isn't that the same for just about any construction method? Minimal corners, 4 straight sides, etc? There are some things that are commonly done to jazz up stick construction, but they may not be the same things that are done with to jazz up ICF and vice-versa. Jeepster mentioned a few of the things, above, that should be considered in helping keep the cost down. I don't necessarily share his distaste for short corners, unless they are so short they start taking bites out of corner block......

In fact, I actually liked doing the corner work and putting jogs in the long walls help support them. In my case, so much so that we were able to build with 6" walls as opposed to 8" or 10".

A good ICF builder will be able to do it in the 5% range. Maybe not every plan that way, but certainly the ones that have considered ICF during design.

Granite has become so inexpensive as it is barged over from China in huge quantities.
I'll try to remember that when I close my countertop contract. :-)

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12 Jan 2012 10:57 PM
  I don't necessarily share his distaste for short corners, unless they are so short they start taking bites out of corner block......

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  I agree with your comment on adding corners to strengthen the wall and break up the monotony, just at least make use of the full corner block.

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12 Jan 2012 11:17 PM
Most people don't use an architect because of the costs involved. On a $300k home, you are looking at 10%-15% of the costs for an architect, so around $30k - $45k for their services.
My architect was much less than that. If you want to use one, talk with them about how to get the fee down. They really want to work. You just need to help make it possible.
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13 Jan 2012 10:57 AM
I’ll be building within the next year and have done my leg work as well. A few of the costs that Lbear mentions are quite similar in our neck of the woods.

Architects are still in good demand in Ottawa (therefore having no real incentive to deal) and many want at least a 10% cut of the total build cost for their services (definitely the case for the 3 that we looked into before quickly being discouraged). We ended up going with an experienced architectural technician who is charging us in the ballpark of $1.50 a sq. ft.

ICF was a plan of ours, but after seeing the upcost in the range of 15-20% as well, it was unfortunately passed over for conventional framing. The full 15% is not entirely attributed to the blocks and the poured concrete, but also to extra cost for thicker/wider glazing, more detailing, stucco-based "parging", more work for electricians running wires on external walls, etc etc.
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13 Jan 2012 11:11 AM
There is a big market between "at least a 10% cut of the total build cost" and $1.50 a sq. ft. My architect's fee was square in the middle at around $5/sf. You need to shop around some.

Same applies to ICF work. Here is the range of bids I had calculated by sf of total floor space.

$41
$32
$30
$22

See the range? What if I had stopped at the upper two bids?
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13 Jan 2012 11:56 AM
Posted By MikeG on 13 Jan 2012 10:57 AM
I’ll be building within the next year and have done my leg work as well. A few of the costs that Lbear mentions are quite similar in our neck of the woods.

ICF was a plan of ours, but after seeing the upcost in the range of 15-20% as well, it was unfortunately passed over for conventional framing. The full 15% is not entirely attributed to the blocks and the poured concrete, but also to extra cost for thicker/wider glazing, more detailing, stucco-based "parging", more work for electricians running wires on external walls, etc etc.

And that is why ICF is not catching on as it should. When you have a 15%-20% upcost just for doing ICF over wood, most middle income people will pass it up and go with wood. For now, ICF mostly caters to commercial and upper income people.
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13 Jan 2012 09:42 PM
Posted By Lbear on 13 Jan 2012 11:56 AM

And that is why ICF is not catching on as it should. When you have a 15%-20% upcost just for doing ICF over wood, most middle income people will pass it up and go with wood. For now, ICF mostly caters to commercial and upper income people.


Comparing a standard code minimum frame house to an ICF is pennywise pound fuelish. Even if the up charge is 15%. Amortize it over your mortgage and then compare it to the cost of the stick frame and the associated heating bill. In other words what is your total monthly cost? And remember, you will eventually pay off the mortgage. You will never pay off your utility bill!
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14 Jan 2012 01:04 AM
Posted By FBBP on 13 Jan 2012 09:42 PM


Comparing a standard code minimum frame house to an ICF is pennywise pound fuelish. Even if the up charge is 15%. Amortize it over your mortgage and then compare it to the cost of the stick frame and the associated heating bill. In other words what is your total monthly cost? And remember, you will eventually pay off the mortgage. You will never pay off your utility bill!


Don't get me wrong, I am most likely going to build with ICF.

The problem with what you are stating is that it does not compute. On a $300k home, that 15% = $45k. I can build a tight 2x6 home, blow in R-22 in the wall (which is the same R-value of ICF), and save myself $45k. It would take 50 years to break even in utility bills. Where is the savings?

For me, I would utilize ICF based on its strength, termite resistance, fire resistance, air tightness, and when engineered correctly, its seismic resistance. The insulating value of ICF does not really win me over. I know that there are many 2x6 wood frames homes that can meet or outperform an ICF home in regards to R value. What I also do know is that in a high wind situation or storm, I would rather be in an ICF home than a wood framed home.

Going into this, I know I will never see a ROI for ICF.
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14 Jan 2012 10:49 AM
Posted By Lbear on 14 Jan 2012 01:04 AM
Posted By FBBP on 13 Jan 2012 09:42 PM


Comparing a standard code minimum frame house to an ICF is pennywise pound fuelish. Even if the up charge is 15%. Amortize it over your mortgage and then compare it to the cost of the stick frame and the associated heating bill. In other words what is your total monthly cost? And remember, you will eventually pay off the mortgage. You will never pay off your utility bill!


Don't get me wrong, I am most likely going to build with ICF.

The problem with what you are stating is that it does not compute. On a $300k home, that 15% = $45k. I can build a tight 2x6 home, blow in R-22 in the wall (which is the same R-value of ICF), and save myself $45k. It would take 50 years to break even in utility bills. Where is the savings?

For me, I would utilize ICF based on its strength, termite resistance, fire resistance, air tightness, and when engineered correctly, its seismic resistance. The insulating value of ICF does not really win me over. I know that there are many 2x6 wood frames homes that can meet or outperform an ICF home in regards to R value. What I also do know is that in a high wind situation or storm, I would rather be in an ICF home than a wood framed home.

Going into this, I know I will never see a ROI for ICF.


Lbear - we could go into the actual values for ICF again and some of the folks on this forum would get all excited about how the ICF industry over states the insulation values of their product but its simpler to once again refer you to a thread like http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/12/aft/79652/afv/topic/Default.aspx.
Yes HVAC-Calc uses a low R value for ICF but how do you explain the final heat loss numbers? Your same size 2x6 with blow will not maker these numbers. Furthermore your 2x6 house will not make the same numbers ten years from now as it does today.
What I find interesting is that it is always number crunchers that say the ICF industry over states the products performance but I have yet to hear from someone living in an ICF house that they were lied to. You mention all sorts of things that are wrong with the industry and why it can't get ahead but the industry continues to turn out a very high percent of satisfied customers.
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14 Jan 2012 09:57 PM
I have yet to hear from someone living in an ICF house that they were lied to.


Do you know anyone living in an ICF house that has the ability to do a properly controlled comparison to equivalent R and infiltration value stick framing?
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16 Jan 2012 05:00 PM
Posted By jonr on 14 Jan 2012 09:57 PM
I have yet to hear from someone living in an ICF house that they were lied to.


Do you know anyone living in an ICF house that has the ability to do a properly controlled comparison to equivalent R and infiltration value stick framing?



Most people living in an ICF house are living in the best performing house they've EVER lived in, and don't have a good basis for comparison with other higher-than-code thermal performance buildings. Moving from a typical  2x4 ~R10 whole-wall stick built that leaks 8-12ACH/50 into a 3ACH/50 R22 ICF there would be significant boost in comfort- it might feel like a palace to some.

ICF has a nice solid feel, they're very quiet & reassuring- most people who live in 'em like 'em (as well they SHOULD), but it's another "so what"?  Most people living in  tight, code x 1.5 stick-built or SIP houses find them a lot more comfortable and preferable to than anything they've lived in previously too.

The people who were told that their R20 ICFs performed like R50 sometimes even believe that, but that performance level isn't supportable by the facts (and it's arguable they were lied to, even if the installer was a true believer.)  To be sure, very few of us have lived in a home with R50 walls, so making that comparison would be difficult.  But the same people who believed R50 might also believe that center-cavity R values of stick-built is the R value of the wall too.

An R13 (R10 whole-wall) isn't terrible, but it sure isn't as cushy as R22 whole-wall with center-mass to take the edge off the peaks, making it arguably R30ish or higher from a comfort point of view when standing next to the wall during the heating & cooling peaks, if not as measured by the utility costs.  Most people aren't doing even the most rudimentary math on any of it, nor do they understand the heat transfer aspects of the building as a whole, but they think they understand what R value is about and tend to put a lot of importance on it, even at R-values where infiltration and windows dwarf the importance of R value from an energy use point of view. You can't really "feel" R50 relative to R25 very much, but you can sure measure the difference in performance.  Similarly the difference between 1ACH/50 and 5ACH/50 has a pretty subtle distinction as felt by the occupants (unless it's underventilated and humidity is though the roof), but has a measurable performance difference in energy use.



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16 Jan 2012 05:16 PM
Posted By Lbear on 14 Jan 2012 01:04 AM
Posted By FBBP on 13 Jan 2012 09:42 PM


Comparing a standard code minimum frame house to an ICF is pennywise pound fuelish. Even if the up charge is 15%. Amortize it over your mortgage and then compare it to the cost of the stick frame and the associated heating bill. In other words what is your total monthly cost? And remember, you will eventually pay off the mortgage. You will never pay off your utility bill!


Don't get me wrong, I am most likely going to build with ICF.

The problem with what you are stating is that it does not compute. On a $300k home, that 15% = $45k. I can build a tight 2x6 home, blow in R-22 in the wall (which is the same R-value of ICF), and save myself $45k. It would take 50 years to break even in utility bills. Where is the savings?

For me, I would utilize ICF based on its strength, termite resistance, fire resistance, air tightness, and when engineered correctly, its seismic resistance. The insulating value of ICF does not really win me over. I know that there are many 2x6 wood frames homes that can meet or outperform an ICF home in regards to R value. What I also do know is that in a high wind situation or storm, I would rather be in an ICF home than a wood framed home.

Going into this, I know I will never see a ROI for ICF.

To be comparable on steady-state R value with an R22 ICF you'd need R8 or so.

By itself 2x6 framing with standard sheathings, sidings, interiors won't beat R15 even if dense-packed,  and R14 would be more typical.

To be comparable to an R22 ICF in comfort & utility costs depends on climate you'd have to make it at least ~R12 of exterior foam. (And in a cooling dominated climate foil faced goods with a rainscreen gap between the foil and the siding will help.)  That's still nothing like a 15% cost adder though.

But it has lower structural capacity, is a bit less quiet (though still quieter than code min in places where R13 batts 7ACH/50 meets code-min).

Building with ICF has nothing to do with ROI- it's rarely the cost/performance leader from a net-present-value on future utility cost saving point of view, but they're comfortable & quiet, and generally low-maintenance. 

In any new construction there can be good financial-analysis for going significantly better than code-min though, especially at the current low cost of money.


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08 Jul 2012 12:41 AM
This may help in terms of the roof system www.facebook.com/onevollc


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