I think the discussion was more about ROI for energy efficient house items, but your point about granite versus concrete lifecycle emissions is well made. Perhaps we should be surfacing our HR and thermal mass floors with more granite/marble and less concrete. I will see if my husband buys into this reasoning for our next house!

If you really want to actually WIN that argument, use scrap granite & leftovers from the local granite-countertop vendor and creatively tile-in something artfully drop-dead gorgeous like these folks did:




...even in the MUDROOM:





Granite keeps getting a bad rap from the green-building crowd on a price/performance point of view when viewed simply as thermal mass.  But it's great stuff, very durable, guaranteed to outlast many other materials used in the house, and fairly low-impact from an environmental point of view. 

It's a mistake to characterize folks who choose to spend money on stone as counter-top or floor finishes as self-absorbed misanthropes unconcerned about climate change or other environmental impacts.

Beautiful, but not sure this will persuade him as he already thinks I am too eccentric and demanding, LOL! Actually, we use both granite and marble frequently for window sills, especially for passive solar windows in ICF buildings. Granite and marble hold up much better than wood sills given the high irradiance and they also just look nicer too (i.e., they are more in proportion/scale with the deeper ICF sills).  They also tend to warm up nicely given the typical thickness used and cats often find them to be the purrfect napping place!

I think the discussion was more about ROI for energy efficient house items, but your point about granite versus concrete lifecycle emissions is well made

I'm not picking on granite. I used 8 slabs. The issue is when the money goes into granite instead of good building practices, proper air sealing, insulation or even PV, now that it has become so cheap.

It IS pathetic to see folks build $300+ per square foot luxury houses at bare code minimums for the insulation & U-factors, to be sure, and it happens. Many/most people with money can do math though, and aren't building a luxury house with the idea that they're going to flip it in 3-7 years, and tend to build better than code-min on many aspects.

PV will effectively be required by code in CA soon for new residential homes beginning in 2020 under Title 24 2013 mandates. PV will be the cheapest way to get there.

http://solutions.borderstates.com/californias-title-24-net-zero-mandate-may-influence-entire-us

Many/most people with money can do math though, and aren't building a luxury house with the idea that they're going to flip it in 3-7 years, and tend to build better than code-min on many aspects.

That's exactly what many people ARE doing. The idea is to GET money, particularly if they don't have enough of it in the first place. It doesn't have to be a luxury house, but it does help if a buyer PERCEIVES it as such, which is the point of the granite. And that's where they ALWAYS go when the discussion comes down to the question of "Why didn't you do this right?" The answer is "I'm only going to keep it long enough to sell it (so it doesn't matter)..."

"I'm only going to keep it long enough to sell it (so it doesn't matter)..."

... which is why there are code minimums for things like insulation, etc.

You can't make a financial rationale for 2x6 / R20 (or even 2x4 / R11) on a 3-7 year energy cost savings basis. But if a few luxury finishes let's a McMansion spec builder unload the things several months sooner the financial rationale is there, given the cost of money and the total amount of cash tied up in the project.

It'll probably be awhile before Net Zero Energy is enshrined in code state-wide in states other than CA, but there are other locations with similar mandates (eg Austin, TX.)

I'm still seeing an awful lot of homes that are presumably built to code minimum standards that would have been improved by some spending on insulation and PV before the granite went in.

I come here to learn. Spent the last 15 years of forum life posting on a ag site.
I've been in construction for 14 years and have been building ICF lately.

Here is what I worked up for a customer. Hope I don't get in trouble with RSMEANS because I took this information from their book.

Like I said I've come here to learn so please correct me if I'm wrong.

From RSMeans
Frame
2'x6", 16 O.C.
sq ft
plates, 2'x6", double top, single bottom
Sheathing, 1/2" plywood CDX
$3.65
insulation
fiberglass Kraftface 6" thick R19 15" wide
$0.74
inslulation board 3/4",4'x8' R 3.4
$1.10
Kraft paper plain
$0.25
Total
$5.74


Insulating forms left in place
each
sq ft is for exterior face, but includes forms for both faces (total R22)
6" wall staight block 16" x 48" (5.78 S.F.)
$30.00
90 corner block, exterior 16" x 30" x 24" (6.22 S.F.)
$36.00
According to RSMeans there is not a lot of difference.
The total Incl O&P is the total cost, including overhead and profit, that the installing contractor will charge the customer. This represents the cost of material plus 10% profit, the cost of labor plus labor burden and 10% profit, and the cost of equipment plus 10% profit. It does not include the general contractor's overhead and profit. See the inside back cover for details of how RSMeans calculates labor burden.

BTW, am building this ICF home for a successful accountant.

Interesting. This 2004 report found that ICF cost about double - also using RS Means for the stud wall and a not unbiased source. Has the cost of stud walls gone way up and the cost of ICF decreased? I'd be interested in the cost of poured concrete with 6" of external EPS foam too.

Posted By uerling on 08 Dec 2014 08:22 AM
BTW, am building this ICF home for a successful accountant.

Are you building it for ~$5/sq ft of wall area?

I wish; like it said, RSMeans does not include contractor overhead. The one I'm on now (is a custom home) has 4- 6'x6' windows on second story
 (plus other large windows that take extra for bracing, pluming and reinforcing because the window ruin the integrity ICF) with an amazing view of the lake. Having to use a man boom to do 4' soffits 20' off the ground.

The energy savings are there.

I'm not sure how you guys are posting pictures.

I have the 2013 RSMeans.

Posted By uerling on 08 Dec 2014 08:22 AM

Insulating forms left in place
6" wall staight block 16" x 48" (5.78 S.F.) $30.00

According to RSMeans...

The total Incl O&P is the total cost, including overhead and profit, that the installing contractor will charge the customer. This represents the cost of material plus 10% profit, the cost of labor plus labor burden and 10% profit, and the cost of equipment plus 10% profit. It does not include the general contractor's overhead and profit. See the inside back cover for details of how RSMeans calculates labor burden.

That is $5.19/sq ft of wall area for 6" ICF.  Those numbers aren't realistic for total material and labor cost plus profit.  It appears that RSMeans didn't include the cost of the concrete, rebar, bracing, window/door bucks, and pump truck.  $5/sq ft would just about cover the cost of the ICF forms and the labor to stack them.

I built my own ICF home and it cost me right at $6.00/sq. ft for the ICF forms, rebar, concrete, and the cost of the pump truck.  If I had paid someone else to do the installation, the price would have been at least double that amount.

A standard ICF block is 48 long 16 high. What did you pay for a a standard ICF blk?

They give you 18.50 for the material, 5.6 labor and 5.9 for O&P.  According to those figures you are right.

I'll check my Invoices. 

Put up a 54' x 60' 4 years ago for my son.  Of course I did not charge him any contractor overhead.

Just put one up for another son this spring but his had inside corners and some odd stuff to slow it down.





Yep sure think it looks like they left out the concrete or about $1.85 a sq ft.

Sorry

Posted By uerling on 09 Dec 2014 07:55 AM
A standard ICF block is 48 long 16 high. What did you pay for a a standard ICF blk?

I didn't use a standard ICF block.  I used LiteForm Xtra which is knock-down type form with separate plastic ties and EPS planks that are 2.5"thick x 8" x 48".  My delivered cost for the ICF forms was ~$2.50/sq ft.

I figured what I have in a sq ft of wall space at current cost.

Material alone is


reg blk-------------19.86--------------------3.733082707
corner blk---------19.41--------------------0.340526316 ------adds about 7 % of a 40 x 54 structure
rebar---------------0.410770677 ft------- 0.410770677
concrete---------- 9.874074074---------- 1.856028961
--------------------------total------------------------------------- $ 6.340408661 sq ft wall


arkie is right...

looks like RSMeans was showing concrete form costs

Thanks for the help... I should have done some number crunching first.