Hi, ANy help would be much appreciated. I had four south facing plate glass windows, double paned, installed by the contractor who built my house. All four leaked. Milgard replaced all 4 under warranty. 3 seem fine now, but one leaks worse than ever. You can see the water leaking from the inside of the window out onto the window sill. WHen I called Milgard they were not helpful. They said "It's an installation issue, talk to your installer." I said "YOU installed the latest window and it is much much worse than the original leaking window." Now, they simply won't talk to me at all. I'm not sure what to do here. It seems to me that since Milgard replaced the original window, and it is now worse, that they are the people to deal with it. Am I wrong about this? I have video showing the leak originating at the corner of the window - inside the two panes- and leaking through a gap in the frame to the outside. I'm stumped. Help??? Thanks. Kavade PS - Is there any way I could have the window evaluated by , I don't know who would judge such a thing - I have a neighbor who is an architect and a general contractor. I'm wondering about this because I'm wondering about small claims court. Thanks very much.

Posted By kavade on 24 Mar 2015 02:47 AM
Hi, ANy help would be much appreciated. I had four south facing plate glass windows, double paned, installed by the contractor who built my house. All four leaked. Milgard replaced all 4 under warranty. 3 seem fine now, but one leaks worse than ever. You can see the water leaking from the inside of the window out onto the window sill. WHen I called Milgard they were not helpful. They said "It's an installation issue, talk to your installer." I said "YOU installed the latest window and it is much much worse than the original leaking window." Now, they simply won't talk to me at all. I'm not sure what to do here. It seems to me that since Milgard replaced the original window, and it is now worse, that they are the people to deal with it. Am I wrong about this? I have video showing the leak originating at the corner of the window - inside the two panes- and leaking through a gap in the frame to the outside. I'm stumped. Help??? Thanks. Kavade PS - Is there any way I could have the window evaluated by , I don't know who would judge such a thing - I have a neighbor who is an architect and a general contractor. I'm wondering about this because I'm wondering about small claims court. Thanks very much.

Same problem here, my current home has Milgard Windows and about 7+ of them failed within the first 3 years of being installed. The problem is in the design of the window. The glazing & seal is held in place by using double sided tape that adheres to the vinyl frames. Glass expands and contracts at different rates than the window frames. The double sided tape fails relatively quickly (especially on the south elevation since it sees so much sun) and once it rains, water can get in between the glass panes and window frame.

The other problem is in the cheap frames they use. They leak around the corners and are very cheaply put together. Water can easily penetrate the frames and begin leaking inside of the home.

I had to fight them to get them to change the windows. It wasn't easy. Later when a few more windows failed they wouldn't do it but I fought them again and they finally showed up after 5 months.

I would first try contacting the head office not the regional office. Tell them what's going on. There should be a 10-year warranty on the windows but again, warranty's are sometimes not even worth the paper they are put on. If they don't want to warranty it there is nothing you can do.

I have been using Paradigm vinyl windows so I understand why people use these, but expansion-contraction is a huge factor in failures. I've recently found - but have not yet used - Comfort Line fiberglass windows out of Ohio; slightly more expensive than vinyl, but a much, much better window; no expansion or degradation issues with fiberglass.

Posted By Bob I on 24 Mar 2015 01:06 PM
I have been using Paradigm vinyl windows so I understand why people use these, but expansion-contraction is a huge factor in failures. I've recently found - but have not yet used - Comfort Line fiberglass windows out of Ohio; slightly more expensive than vinyl, but a much, much better window; no expansion or degradation issues with fiberglass.

Not all vinyl windows are engineered the same. It's like a car. They have 4 wheels, windows, engine, etc. but a Chevy Cavalier is not a Ferrari.

Intus Windows uses a uPVC frame profile that is VERY thick than most other vinyl manufacturers who use thin vinyl which flexes and distorts much more easily. The thicker the PVC the harder it is to bend/distort. Intus then uses UNPLASTICIZED PVC which is stronger and more resistant to heat/UV. They then install thick tubed galvanized steel U-Channels inside of the PVC frames. These channels are screwed into the PVC frame and provide great strength and rigidity. They attained Miami Dade certified hurricane ratings on the PVC lineup.

Finally, here is the vital part. Intus installs a floating gasket system in that the entire triple pane IGU itself is suspended on a rubber insulator all around with EPDM gaskets so the window sits deep in the frame but is allowed to float and move as it chooses. The PVC window frame and the triple pane IGU are independent of each other, both materials can expand and move as they choose WITHOUT compromising the seal.

The above is what makes a truly well engineered window design system. If you seal the glazing to the frame profile via double sided tape or silicone, IT WILL FAIL. As you are trying to fight the laws of physics and you will always lose. Materials expand and contract at different rates and you CAN'T stop that, all you can do is engineer a way for them to move without causing issues/failures. Intus engineered their product to work and last.

Posted By Bob I on 24 Mar 2015 01:06 PM
I have been using Paradigm vinyl windows so I understand why people use these, but expansion-contraction is a huge factor in failures. I've recently found - but have not yet used - Comfort Line fiberglass windows out of Ohio; slightly more expensive than vinyl, but a much, much better window; no expansion or degradation issues with fiberglass.

Just the same as PVC/vinyl, not all fiberglass is the same. There are plenty of problems emerging from some fiberglass lines.

Fiberglass is NOT resistant to the UV. Quite the opposite. Fiberglass does have less thermal expansion BUT it's "kryptonite" is UV. Every see what happens to fiberglass spa and pool pumps? They get destroyed in the sun and turn into powder as the fiberglass strands unravel and disintegrate in the sun. One has to apply a layer of protection on top of the fiberglass frames to protect them and this is usually done via UV resistant paint. Paint chips and scratches over time. It requires maintenance or your frames will begin to get attacked by the suns UV.

When fiberglass is exposed to UV light, the color fades and the fibers are then exposed to direct UV rays which cause the material to bloom and deteriorate. That is a fact and ask anyone who works with fiberglass about its pros and cons. It has it's advantages but the sun and UV exposure is definitely a con.

Interesting. I have a 24x36 Paradigm double hung and a 24x36 Intus as samples; the Intus is twice the weight of the other one. You can tell with those and with most of the other European windows that they are well thought through. So the fiberglass is similar to wood in that if you keep it covered it will last.

Posted By Bob I on 24 Mar 2015 07:21 PM
Interesting. I have a 24x36 Paradigm double hung and a 24x36 Intus as samples; the Intus is twice the weight of the other one. You can tell with those and with most of the other European windows that they are well thought through. So the fiberglass is similar to wood in that if you keep it covered it will last.

Yes, they are VERY heavy and extremely well built. Ever close/lock a tilt and turn window? It's like closing a bank vault door.

Yes, if you keep fiberglass protected from the sun, it will last. Fiberglass window frames should be powder coated at a minimum in my opinion. Painting them with paint will require upkeep and repainting years later. During install I would be careful not to scratch or scuff the finish.

And I bet they are quiet as brick!

Thank you for the explanation Lbear.

I learned something. And I have some really cheap vinyl windows! One already came out for a quality Kobe wood frame, but I will no longer hold a grudge for vinyl.

I have read quite a few threads about windows but never commented on them, in 1987 I built a large two story passive solar home double wall construction with all casement windows. In 1987 it was double glazing, low e, the frames were German made extruded vinyl, triple rubber seals, not cheap, but still going strong!

I never had a problem with the glass until I hit year 26 and then a few started to leak but only on the south side. Changing a few of the glazing's every year it hasn't been that much of a headache and only a few so far!

New ICF build in 2013 and again went with vinyl casement but triple glazed low e, I hope to live long enough to comment on them in 25 years!

John

Posted By JohnyH on 25 Mar 2015 08:31 AM
I have read quite a few threads about windows but never commented on them, in 1987 I built a large two story passive solar home double wall construction with all casement windows. In 1987 it was double glazing, low e, the frames were German made extruded vinyl, triple rubber seals, not cheap, but still going strong!

I never had a problem with the glass until I hit year 26 and then a few started to leak but only on the south side. Changing a few of the glazing's every year it hasn't been that much of a headache and only a few so far!

New ICF build in 2013 and again went with vinyl casement but triple glazed low e, I hope to live long enough to comment on them in 25 years!

John

That just shows you on how a properly engineered and quality vinyl window can and does last over 26+ years and still going. The Germans are good at engineering things. That is for sure.

Here is a profile section on an Intus uPVC window. You can see the steel channel tubes through both frames. Triple gasket seals on the operable portions. Look at how thick the uPVC is on these frames. Not the cheap thin vinyl you see elsewhere in most windows. Multiple steel locking pins lock the window in 4-8 places depending on the size of the window.

Then look closely at the IGU and how it sits on a floating rubber gasket and the sides of the IGU have replaceable EPDM rubber gaskets. Of course the Swiss warm edge spacers can be seen by the tiny little bead like material.

This design allows the IGU to float and move around as it so chooses and the same for the PVC. The two different materials never interfere with each other and the seal is 100% solid and never fails due to expansion.

Mystified question: Please explain fiberglass boats vs. fiberglass windows. FG boats have extreme unprotected exposure to sun, weather, etc., much more so than windows.
RichM

I'll take a stab at the question about why FG watercraft don't suffer from this UV deterioration. Typically boats have an epoxy resin gel coating that is applied first to the mold before they are backed with the composite polymer matrices which generally are mixtures of polyester resin and fiberglass. The gel coating provides a relatively high degree of UV protection. My experience is that is is not applied to the finished FG but is applied first to the mold and then the FG matrix is layered on top of the cured gel. The question then would be whether this gel would work or be practical for windows?

The above sounds about right with fiberglass boats. Fiberglass windows don't have the same coating and most of the fiberglass frames out there are just painted. There MIGHT be a manufacturer that powder coats the finish which would be a superior finish. It's not a secret that fiberglass and the sun don't mix. The fiberglass needs to be protected with a coating, preferably a thick resin.

True- the gel coat on a fiberglass boat contains a lot of solids, which serve to protect the regular resin from UV. Even fiberglass boats degrade in sunlight given enough years. I have fiberglass windows, and I will keep an eye on them over the years. It takes a long time for fiberglass to degrade, so I should be able to stay on top of it with normal maintenance. Regardless of construction, all exterior finishes fail over time, so a prudent homeowner keeps an eye on things.

On a side note- there is a local window company that advertises heavily here in SC, and in the ad, an installer tucks a window under his arm and walks towards the house. That must be a pretty lightly built window! My Marvin Integrity windows weighed a ton.

The Intus looks to be a fine window, so peace on that, but lets make a few observations concerning fiberglass windows:

Fiberglass doesn't care about UV, why should it? It is just glass. Now the epoxy resin does, however, most pultrusion manufacturers include UV inhibitors in their resins. This means that in this way they are just like PVC manufacturers, UV inhibitors are required. Don't even think of showing unprotected PVC to the sun however, it will deteriorate much faster than unprotected fiberglass.

Unlike PVC, fiberglass can be powdercoated. The polymers in powercoating melt at about the same temperature as PVC, unlike fiberglass which is much higher. So my powdercoated fiberglass windows have two levels of protection, UV inhibitors in the fiberglass, and a very strong powdercoat. You cannot paint vinyl windows, so your protection is limited to just the UV inhibitors. I can also repaint my fiberglass windows if the powdercoat is ever damaged.

My fiberglass windows also make use of face gaskets for the seals. These are about a quarter of an inch wide (and there are two). The latching mechanism also puts considerable force against these seals. This can be done as the fiberglass is very strong and doesn't deform under the force of the closure, and also will not coldflow. There is no way the PVC could make use of such a sealing system as the vinyl would cold flow. Note the bulb design (or large cantilevered flap) of the Intus seals, these are designed to minimize force. So at least the folks at Intus recognized the shortcomings of the material, and have accommodated it with their design. The only problem I see is that every time I try to replace this type of custom seal they tend to be hard to get and hence expensive. Of course this is not an issue if you replace your windows before the seals deteriorate, but I have always kept my windows longer than that.

One last comment: The steel required to stiffen the PVC frame seems at odds with minimizing heat transfer though the frame. In fact several of the fiberglass manufacturers have started to foam the cavities in the pultrusions, something that would be pointless in the sections with the metal, and at least difficult in the other sections with the large amount of ribbing.

Regarding fiberglass frames and finish, according to the Marvin Integrity Ultrex fiberglass frame window website "A patented co-extruded acrylic cap is mechanically bonded directly to the substrate prior to the curing process, The result is a high-performance finish, free of striations and pinholes, that is up to 3x thicker than competitive finishes. It's easy to see difference between the Ultrex patented, mechanically bonded finish and the competition's painted finish."

Posted By dave111 on 26 Mar 2015 02:08 PM
The Intus looks to be a fine window, so peace on that, but lets make a few observations concerning fiberglass windows:
 
You cannot paint vinyl windows, so your protection is limited to just the UV inhibitors. I can also repaint my fiberglass windows if the powdercoat is ever damaged.

My fiberglass windows also make use of face gaskets for the seals. These are about a quarter of an inch wide (and there are two). The latching mechanism also puts considerable force against these seals. This can be done as the fiberglass is very strong and doesn't deform under the force of the closure, and also will not coldflow. There is no way the PVC could make use of such a sealing system as the vinyl would cold flow. Note the bulb design (or large cantilevered flap) of the Intus seals, these are designed to minimize force.

One last comment: The steel required to stiffen the PVC frame seems at odds with minimizing heat transfer though the frame. In fact several of the fiberglass manufacturers have started to foam the cavities in the pultrusions, something that would be pointless in the sections with the metal, and at least difficult in the other sections with the large amount of ribbing.

To address some of your points:

The vinyl windows are NOT just limited to UV inhibitors. They can install the RENOLIT EXOFOL FX over the uPVC at the factory which consists of 3 layers. The top layer consists of a polyvinylidene fluoride film, the second is transparent polymethylmethacrylate (PMMA) and the base layer is a solid colour PMMA. The base layer contains Solar Shield Technology (SST), to further decrease heat build-up of the film and the laminated components, including radiation damage. The three-layered structure of the film retains any color nearly without change throughout the service life, even when subjected to intense UV exposure.

As far as air sealing goes. The Intus uPVC line gets AI Ratings of <0.03 cfm². The industry standard rating is 0.30. So the gasket design is very air tight. They also tested the windows at Design Pressures of greater than 200MPH and the window held without failure. The standard uPVC window frame is Miami-Dade County hurricane rated.

In regards to the steel channels. There is NO thermal bridging since the PVC is not conducting and the steel is thermally broken from either side. No matter what you stick in the frame, foam, filling, etc. it will always be the weak link in the window design. The glazing will always be far superior in the R-Value vs the window frame. Building science states that the best way to insulate window frames is by recessing the window in the wall cavity and placing insulation/rigid foam on the outside to insulate the frames. 

Which brings me to my question. Since fiberglass frames use mechanically fastened corners instead of welded corners. How do they seal the corner frames from AI and water infiltration? Do they install gaskets at the corners?

We just a Milgard contractor give us a quote that we we're strongly leaning towards. Im really glad I read this post because they are not cheap. But Im confused now because there is so many window companies out there. I really don't know where to go from here. I want something that will really last, and not cause problems down the road.

Just got a good quote on Hurd 8000 series windows.

Anyone use or have any info on those?

About 25% less than the high end makers for example $310 for a 48x24H awning for example double with J trim etc in vinyl.

Today we met with a really good contractor. Our plan was to install a bay window in our kitchen, and double hungs in the bedrooms of our new 3500 sq. ft. house. After meeting with the local Milgard person, we did not know what to do. Our contractor suggested Andersen 400 series wood fiberglass windows, and thats what we’re are going with. The warranty on the product is good, and the warranty on the job is good, so we’re happy. If you guys have a sure windows in your area, they have really good guys there. http://surewindows.com/