Which stick house to buy
Last Post 08 Aug 2015 09:11 AM by Bob I. 12 Replies.
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benoUser is Offline
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27 Jul 2015 10:21 PM
Hello, 6 years ago we built an ICF home and we were really happy with it. Now is time to move, and we will buy a stick house. The question is: to go for a newer construction, let's say less than 20 years old or to go with an older home from the 50s or 60s? We are looking for better materials and less toxic materials. Area: Ottawa, Canada. Thanks!
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30 Jul 2015 04:26 PM
In the 50s & 60s plywood and plank sheathing were common, now often replaced by OSB in homes younger than 20 years.

Homes back then also leaked a lot of air, commonly used lead paint (both interior and exterior), and were built with far less insulation than recent code minimums, and had no interior vapor barriers (other than the leaded / alkyd paints.) As a result, sometimes fixing the air leakage and energy use problems leads to mold problems or paint failures.

There are no simple answers, but in general a 2x6 framed wall with R23 rock wool in the cavities and a 6 mil poly vapor barrier detailed as an air barrier is going to be more comfortable and healthier in Ottawa than a 2x4 framed house with R11 fiberglass that leaks air. But most of those older home have had differing levels & types of thermal upgrades. The details matter.
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30 Jul 2015 07:03 PM
I built an ICF house in Ottawa 2 years ago, infill, tore down the house and rebuilt ICF, I couldn't be happier with how the ICF build has been for comfort. If your previous house was ICF than the only reason to buy stick build is you have realized that the initial cost of your ICF build will never be covered by your resale. people only look at the aesthetics, finishes, paint colour and brick exterior. NEVER do they look at what is under the drywall, or at least most don't. Life is transitional, people move on, they buy cheap and hope to make money on the resale.
Without question you should look at newer builds, but remember you get what you pay for! Tract homes or unbelievable, lowest bid wins the contract!

My previous house was a double wall stick build, passive solar built in 1987. It was extremely efficient and a nice place to live, in the country. after 25 years we decided to move back into the city, I sold it for less than it would cost to rebuild just the house, the lot was worth 190K!

John
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30 Jul 2015 07:37 PM
One of my grandfathers was a stone mason, which I suppose inspired me to remember the old adage that a true philanthropist builds with stone.

Perhaps the modern philanthropist builds with concrete and GREEN insulation!

Now if we can just get some PEX in there, I',m all in!
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
Bob IUser is Offline
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30 Jul 2015 07:42 PM
It's typically cheaper to buy old than build new. Resale prices are still low due to the current market, but material prices are higher than ever, raising building cost. My feeling much better off buying a 1960 ranch and doing an exterior deep energy retrofit with good windows etc a little bit of interior remodeling, and insulate the basement. They are typically well built (not always of course) with plywood and straight grained lumber from old growth trees. And many have hardwood floors.
Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant
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31 Jul 2015 11:27 AM
I am with Bob I. I recall a study showing that many old houses in Madison Wis could pass today's blower door requirements -- no surprise in a climate where poor quality is painfully obvious the first winter. Ask to see energy bills. Commission an audit before pulling the trigger. The good news in the general disregard for efficiency is that those who do care don't have to pay premiums.
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31 Jul 2015 02:49 PM
toddm: The 3ACH/50 isn't a tough hurdle to hit, but it's more than a stripe on the floor. A lot of older houses would beat that, but many would not.

How many of those older houses in Madison WI have insulated basement walls?

Bob's approach can be worth it. Doing a DER on a plywood sheathed 50s/60s rancher by stripping the siding then dense-packing & air sealing the walls from the exterior, and adding a few inches of foam under new siding can be cheaper than building a new house of equivalent performance. The key to keeping it cheap is to BUY cheap- finding a house that is structurally sound and has a livable interior but needs new siding & roofing or other exterior amenities. Envelope improvements at that level usually only make economic sense when it actually NEEDS new siding or roofing.

Uninsulated basements would be worth upgrading in Ottawa in any house (even a 1990s house), even if it meant gutting a finished but uninsulated basement to do it.
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31 Jul 2015 06:47 PM
Would uninsulated basements be worth upgrading if OP moves in another 6 years? Surely there are conscientious homeowners in Ottawa who replaced furnaces with modcon models and installed decent windows and more insulation when energy costs spiked, and who now realize that granite countertops are more important. If the average homebuyer doesn't care about energy efficiency, why shouldn't OP consider it a freebie rather than a expense? Replacing countertops is cheaper and easier.
Bob IUser is Offline
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31 Jul 2015 08:02 PM
people will pay more for livable/useable space & are looking for relief from increasing energy prices, increasing the value of better home envelopes. You'll be far more comfortable for the next six years.
Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant
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03 Aug 2015 04:28 PM
Was "upgrading" to an ICF house "worth it", given that beno only lived there 6 years?

If you tried to make a financial case for insulation based on the net present value of future energy costs in as short a span as 6 years you couldn't even make a case for 2x4/R13 walls over R8 econobatts in Ottawa. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth it.

If you want to live in less-comfortable sub-code-min housing (like mine) that's your choice, but that's not to say it isn't "worth" upgrading to something like code-min or better where it's easy when taking on an older house. Uninsulated unfinished basements are low hanging fruit compared to a foam-over of the above grade walls- especially if the siding and roof are in good shape. I'm not sure if basement insulation was required in Ottawa in the 90s or not, but it wasn't required in most places in the 1950s & '60s and it isn't very expensive to retrofit if the basement hasn't been turned into finished fully-conditioned space. If it has to be gutted and re-finished the economics are different, but that's not to say it isn't "worth it" when the insulation job gets rid of the musty-basement smell, making the space that much nicer to use, and somewhat easier to sell.

I'm not convinced that granite countertops can ever be financially rational in a 6 year timeframe either, but you'll have non-toxic counters in a pretty nice kitchen in the meantime if you go that route (unless your granite came out of a quarry on top of a uranium mine.)

For "...better materials and less toxic materials..." older is generally better. It can come at a higher energy-use and comfort costs. Those can be remediated, but that remediation is much easier with some houses- it really does depend on the house.
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04 Aug 2015 08:42 AM
The subtext here is that the buyer of beno's icf house got comfort for free, and I am saying simply that beno look for the same deal in Ottawa. Stewardship is going to make the most difference in old houses, be they from the 90s or the 60s, and that goes for the most likely toxin as well: mold. Beno's advantage: Mrs. beno may still dislike the tile in the baths but she also knows comfort and how it is delivered. In a tradeoff, changing the surfaces in an updated, efficient house is easier than gutting a house that's still 1960s inefficient.
benoUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2015 01:16 AM
Thanks for your replies. We built with ICF for 2 reasons: we thought we will live there for many years and I wanted to build something for generations to come, kind of my contribution to the world. :-)
You all had valid points and I'll for sure use those in our decision.
BTW, there are also many houses in great locations in Ottawa from 1920-1930. What do you think about those? Should I be worried of blocks foundations?
Bob IUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2015 09:11 AM
Block foundations can be insulated relatively easily, and houses from that period are usually solid. The main issue (other than air sealing and insulation) is moisture as most of these houses do not have foundation drains. So the first goal should be to fully condition the basement and dry it out.
Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant
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