Hawaii may seem to have some wind? Do you know of any home wind installations near you? You probably should firstly determine if wind is an option - probably blows even while raining and at night? An electric windplant may be a viable option and newer grid tied inverters are now on the market (for windplants).
Wind is also used for water pumping. the old Aeromotor Chicago windplants would pump tens of thousands of gallons per day out west into big tanks for the cattle. A second hand 8 ft. diameter pumper could lift your water into an elevated tank and then it could return to the pool through a sand filter. (backflush with the electric pump for proper "refreshed" sand quality.)
I bought my first waterpumper for 8 lobsters!

Read this http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13290

The article goes into how to decrease cost by putting a timer on the circulator, size the pump correctly and do other changes that would likely be cheaper than solar or at least decrease the cost of the solar system.

Cindi,
I am also from Hawaii and have been looking for the perfect pv pool pump. The best info I have found came from a solar company in Arizona. It seems relatively easy to install and has a quick payback. http://www.dependablesolarproducts.com/solar-pool-pumping.shtml.
Maybe we could find a couple other islanders interested, and place a big order for some sort of discount.

Which island? I am in Kona/Big Island. I called Dependable Solar the other day and they are out of solar panels. But they have the pumps and controllers. The problem is they aren't sure there is enough pressure to push the water to the roof-top solar panels, so I am trying to find out how much pressure is required for that. We have another issue also with the Polaris pump, there is definitely not enough pressure for that. So maybe that pump continues on AC power?

Buy and install a small 1/12 or 1/6 hp electric pump. It will pump about 20-25 GPM but only consumes about 0.25 KWH per hour. Use your large pump for about 2 hours to do the skimming or run your bottom cleaner. This is very cost effective and more efficient than your larger pump. I live in Florida and have considered the solar pool pump but the payback seems very slow here ($0.15/KWH here).

Before buying any pump it's prudent to know what its performance would be. This requires estimating the pressure loss of the system for the proposed flow rate. The pressure drop of the filter and solar panels, if any, should be available from manufacturers. Piping and fitting losses must also be estimated.  The pump performance curve should be compared to the system curve to see the likely operating point.

We opted for a two stage main circulation pump. Our main pump is a 1.5 hp / 2 speed and it consumes about 250w in low speed, used 95% of the time and consumes just over 1100w in high speed. We only use high speed for vacuuming or adding bigger doses of chemicals. Besides the reduced power consumption, it is a lot quieter.

I read that California banned the use of single speed pool pumps in 2008. Pentair has a variable flow pump that they are touting as being vastly more efficient than a 2-speed pump. http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/intelliflovfDS.pdf . They sell for over $1000. Probably need to be paying $1/KW-Hr to recoup the cost.

It is true that on a variable speed you can dial in any speed or flow you need. When we ran our numbers given the pump run time and water change over it came back just under what the 1.5 hp ran in low speed. So for 1/3 the cost we went with a 2 speed vs. a variable speed and just let it run in low.

Solar powered swimming pool pumps are gaining in popularity especially in areas like Hawaii where we pay some of the highest rates around. I didn't have much faith in the ability of a solar powered swimming pool pump to keep a pool clean. I was wrong. I won't use anything else in the future. Until I put one in and saw it with my own eyes I would not have believed it. The last one I put on was in September and the homeowner hasn't used the backup pump I installed since. There are many options available including an ac power pack which allows the solar pump to draw power from your house power in case the solar power available is too weak to run the pump. If there is enough solar available to run the pump half on solar it will regulate between the two until there is enough solar power to run the pump solely on the solar. I'm sure that it sounds like a sales pitch. I'm not a salesman (yet) I am a pool professional right now but I see where this technology is leading and I am determined to be a part of it. If anybody wants to know more, send me a message whether you are in Hawaii or not.

Don do you have a link to whoever makes those systems? What size pumps? How many GPM's? I also frequent other forums on pools that ask about this all the time. Is the pump run on DC?

Brock,
They are dc powered pumps. There are a few companies that make some of the pumps but, I am getting ready to be a rep/distributor for one of them. The way it works is: if you have a pool that filters on a 1hp pump you would use a 1/2hp dc pump. The largest one that they make is a 1 1/2 hp. You want to make sure that you have the proper solar array to do the job. I suggest at least 520 watts. In your case if you are located in WI you are going to want to get the ac power pack as well. If I knew then what I know now I would have used the ac power pack as opposed to having a backup pump. I will have my own website soon but if you want to look at the information on the best pump and system google Lorentz Badu Top 12 solar pool pumps. You will find plenty of flow rates etc. You can run the pump controller off of backup batteries but I always go solar direct.
Don

I already am setup to run our 2 speed pump in low on our solar array. But many people ask me about it, I have always thought it shouldn’t be that hard, like you said a DC pump with AC backup to the DC side, it's just that no one has it all together, yet...

Trust me, it's all together now. The biggest hurdle is the cost factor. The pump and controller don't set you back much more than buying a multi-speed energy saving pump, it's the panels that are the heavy hit. The pv panels are coming down in price slowly though. There are so many pool builders around that don't even know it's possible to filter a pool off the grid. Power companies will give the public money to encourage them to use pool pumps that are more efficient but they won't give a dime to a person that puts in a solar powered pump. It doesn't make any sense. As the solar powered swimming pool pump becomes more popular, it's going to take a lot of lobbying on someones part to get some incentives for people to offset their costs other than a state or federal tax credit, but if you factor in the cost of electricity in most sunshine states, the payback on a system is not too bad.

I don't know if you have a line on the panels but I have found Sun Electronic to have the cheapest panels per watt I have seen and they carry quite a few of the name brands as well. I totally understand the cost of the panels being the largest part :)

Thanks for the info, they do have some great prices

Don,

I certainly would like to know what you are doing with pools and solar technology. I am getting ready to go into the solar field (pv), but i also want to learn more about Thermal when it comes to heating pools. I would love to hear from you.
Hal

Don

Do you have a website yet? I would LOVE to visit it. I'm a pool owner in Seattle, WA and am investigating solar collectors and PV powered pumps.

Thanks,

Tania

Anone here have any information on stockists in or around Brisbane, Queensland, Australia?

We'll be getting our first pool within the next 3 months and we're really excited about it, the major concern we have is that our power bill is going to go through the roof. We have a PV energy system in use and feeding excess power back to the grid but we weren't too heavily involved in installing that system as it was completed as part of a government rebate scheme.

We get a lot of Western sun from midday til dusk and have a very large roof space facing that direction. My understanding is that North or NW facing faces are highly desirable for such systems in this state.

Bit long winded sorry but if anyone has any information or suggestions for an Aussie we'd appreciate it.

Other than the guy who posted here, I didn't get any good feedback about solar pool pumps. When you work it out, the first thing to do is get the most efficient pump you can, the Intelliflo. That is also good because it runs slowly all day so optimizes solar heating. Then we decided we are better off installing regular solar panels and feeding back to the grid. Then they can pay for the pumps or whatever other power need we have.

Yeah I guess simply adding more panels and feeding back into the grid makes sense too. The pool guy we had here today says that power consumption for the pump will average about a dollar a day. With the price of energy set to take off (like everything else) I was hoping a kit of some sort might exist which could be installed along with the pool or maybe retro fitted down the track. Australia and Queensland in particular seems to be lagging in this area - which is absolutely ridiculous when you consider the number of hours of sunlight here.

Considering how much power pool pumps use, there should be a lot more development going on in this area.

I'd check that $1 a day. Ours is more than that even if you only run it 2 hours a day, and that's only one of the two pumps. In order to heat the pool it needs to run for 6+ hours a day. 6 hours is about $4 a day for the 1 pump. That's at 35c/kwh.

A typical 1 hp pump will use just under 1 kw an hour. So if you run it 10 hours a day that’s 10kwh's. The US national average is $.11/ kwh so that would put you at $1.10 a day.

Now if you have a 1.5 or 2 hp pump it would be 1.5 or twice that and again depending on your local utility rate and how long you run it will vary as well.

We run a 2 speed, 1.5 hp pump in low 99% of the time and run it only off peak, about 14 hours a day. When running in low it consumes 240w compared to over 1000w in high speed. Most filters actually filter better running longer at a lower speed.

Yes, a two speed pump running in low speed is definitely better. Ours runs 1 speed only. That's why I said our first move is to go to a Intelliflo pump.

Isn't the intelliflow a variable speed pump? When we priced them out it was about $250 more for a two speed setup and about $750 more for variable speed. I figured we would end up sitting about where the low speed was on the two speed with a variable speed so we went the 2 speed option.

If you have a single speed one of the other advantage even going to two speed is the noise, it is SO much quieter. Also you could likely retrofit a two speed in to a single speed with a manual switch right on the pump for high / low without changing any of the existing pool controls.

It is a variable speed. There are some advantages to us. One is that nobody seems to know how big of a pump we need to pump our water to the solar panels on the 2nd story. And also to run the pool sweep once we convert it from it's own pump and make it the sunction side kind. The Intelliflo automatically sets itself to the lowest speed need to get the job done and to exchange the amount of water you want to exchange. It also can control multiple things (I think 4 things), so when we add a water feature, that pump could be run from the same pump.

Yes, we hear that the intelliflo is super quiet too. Since we were contemplating building a cave for the existing pumps, the intelliflo actually saves use money since we don't have to do that.

Are you trying to pump water through an open loop from the pool up through the solar panels? That is, the solar panels are empty during the night, and then during the day, you fill them with water from the ground up? If so, there are three elements of pressure that you need to consider. The first - the easiest one - is the height of the top of the panels; so, for example, if the top of your panels are 20 feet higher than the water level of the pool, you must have 20 feet of head for the elevation. The second thing that you need to consider the the pressure loss going through the panels. This depends on how your panels are plumbed (in parallel, or in series), how much water you are pumping through the panels, and what the characteristics of the panels are. Most panel manufactures publish pressure loss charts that relate GPM through one panel, and pressure loss through that panel. More GPM = more pressure loss. If you have that information for one panel, you can determine what it is for your entire array. The third thing that you need is the piping schematics for the PVC that run from the pool up to the panels, and back - size, length, # of turns. Also, any other things in this loop that might impact the difficulty of pushing water through it. Generally, though, I'd expect this number to be much smaller than the other two numbers. My guess, if your panels are on the second story, and the elevation from the top of the panels to the pool is about 20 feet, is that you will not find a DC pump to overcome the head loss due to elevation - you'll have to use a larger pump for that reason. If you have some data on the panels, and your array configuration, I could help you with that calculation. Jeff

That sounds like the perfect application for the intelliflo. As you said you could tweak the speeds once you see what you actually need and if you turn on a water feature it can automatically adjust the speed of the pump to keep the rest of the system at the same basic flow rate.

I think that is the best idea to save the electric energy.

All variable speed pumps involve design compromises that hurt efficiency . I'd look at using two pumps, a small one and a large one. Probably less expensive too.

Larger filters will also reduce pumping costs. Running at a lower flow but running 24hrs/day also minimizes pumping costs per gallon filtered.

The Solar Pool Pumps come in several different sizing systems based on your pool's capacity. With each system, the pump sizes are the same and can run on as little as 50 volts. The only difference is the additional solar panel needed to power the pump to drive additional volume.

Solar panels for sale, Solar Panels

Hi,

Solar power isn't restricted to just powering your home. Solar pool heat is a great alternative use for solar power on your property. Over the course of a typical summer, a pool on average may consume as much energy as an average home uses in three months.

So instead of shelling out an extra $2,000 or more in electricity bills for your swimming pool, why not tap into a renewable resource to keep that pool heated. Solar power can be used for three main pool systems: heating the pool water, operating pool pumps, and warming water for outdoor showers.

These systems have more benefits than just driving your enormous utility bill way down. They are easier to maintain than traditional systems requiring minimal maintenance vice a gas water heater that must be serviced yearly.

Michelle

.25 per kWh is double than what we are paying in AZ. We know not how lucky we are!

There is a floating, solar pool pump and filtration system that works with any size pool...claims to save between $30 to $150 per month,www.saviorpool.com

Not in love with the name but it received good reviews!

I've been tinkering with an idea for my Florida project.  Why not go DC and avoid any AC conversion loss and equipment expense.  1 Hp is about 740 Watts.  A 1.5 KW PV system should be able to comfortably drive a 1.5 Hp DC pump with margin.  No controller.  When the sun comes up the pump starts, when the sun goes down it stops.

Has anyone come up with a controller that you could tie a 500-750 watts of solar to an existing .75-1.0 HP pool pump (through an inverter of course..and I know...there will be conversion losses) so that on sunny days...the solar would take over for the the power source and on overcast/evenings..the grid would take over?

Thanks,

I have a simple relay wired to select between two power sources - ie, if power source #1 isn't working, switch to power source #2. You could call it a small automatic transfer switch.

Always account for the fact that an electric motor needs much more energy to start (except for variable speed controllers).

Jon,

So your using an A/C pump ?  Converting the Solar D/C to A/C with an inverter? (Modified Sine or Pure Sine?)
Did you build/design a "smart transfer" or are you just toggling it manual?

Based on comments here..500-750 watt should suffice for "most" home pool systems.

Any more data on your system.

Thanks

Here's some data to help you: http://www.welserver.com/perl/plot/...lPower.png

At 6:15 AM it's a 2.2 HP pump motor at about 1900 watts.  A few minutes later it changes to low speed, making it a 0.28 HP pump motor running at about 325 watts.

At 8 AM the motor returns to high speed (to run the spa), again at 1900 watts.  At 8:15 AM the motor changes to low speed, again at 325 watts.

At 12:15 PM a 3/4 HP pump starts up (cleaner), running in addition to the filter pump in low speed.  Total watts is 1600.

At 2:30 PM the only pump running is a 2.5 HP pump, at about 2100 watts.

Best regards,

Bill

I use the "automatic transfer switch" for other things, but as long as your solar inverter shuts down cleanly when it can't drive the output, then it should work fine (it's smart, without any manual action).

Most any DPDT 120V/240V AC relay can be wired up to do this. Two input plugs, one output plug. If plug A has power, it will turn on the relay and route plug A to the output plug. If not, the the relay will drop and plug B will be connected to the output.

In general, I'm going to guess that the power draw of a filter pump is based largely on how much resistance the filter has to flow. So large filters should be able to get the same GPM with a smaller pump.

Posted By jonr on 27 Jul 2012 09:07 PM

Most any DPDT 120V/240V AC relay can be wired up to do this. Two input plugs, one output plug. If plug A has power, it will turn on the relay and route plug A to the output plug. If not, the the relay will drop and plug B will be connected to the output.

In general, I'm going to guess that the power draw of a filter pump is based largely on how much resistance the filter has to flow. So large filters should be able to get the same GPM with a smaller pump.

Jon,

Using the relay as the switch, would that not cause relay points arcing if the pump is running when the sun gets shaded lets say.  It would seem like a soft-start. soft-stop (transfer) would be better for the pump/relay.

Based on my research, a larger filter (at least 50% over-sized), larger diameter piping and less 90 degree bends in the piping...45 degree bends better, would need a smaller pump.

I think that running an inverter without a battery would be a problem for clouds and for motor startup. No battery + variable speed drive and slow start might be OK. But then you need some smarter logic to decide when to switch to mains power.

I'd run a 2x or 3x oversized filter and pipes in areas where the power is very expensive.

Hey Jon, what about just using a Grid-Tie Inverter and pumping 200-400 watts back into the house? The pool pump would be running off home A/C as normal, but you would be supplementing that power with the solar/grid-tie.

Would that work?

That sounds easy. Use a timer on the pump so it runs at midday (when you are most likely to have solar power).

My thoughts...sometimes we all over-think things ;-)

Also, when it sounds easy...I always wonder

I would go the solar grid tie route and just set the timer to run at the times you usually have sun and would be back-feeding the grid anyway. You will get the most efficient system this way, no batteries to maintain or have loss with. And if your panels are putting out any power it will all be used by the home in some way, not just when they are getting full sun and could power the pump directly.

Brock,

Thanks..that is what I'm leaning toward.  I can get 1KW of panels ($1000), 1.5 kW transformerless high eff inverter ($700) and power my pool pump most of the day (except maybe if the spa is on)..but I can always add a few more panels when I get the $$$.  Plus, during low speed pump usage..I would offset my home usage.

Do you have any info on SunRay 3 phase DC solar pumps (lorentz pfd600)?  Are DC pumps more eff than VFD Pumps?

The most efficient (kwh/gal) pump is one sized for the exact pressure and gpm needed and without extra electronics.

jonr,

I believe your correct..however, when their are spas, solar water heater collectors on a roof etc..etc...pump demands can vary. So the newer VFD pumps appear to be the best of both worlds. Granted..more to go wrong. But in the old way of doing it..using a single speed pump...the installer would have to determine the greatest flow/PSI needed..worst case scenario..then buffer a plumbing/degradation factor and install the appropriate pump. Unfortunately, that is typically too big for most of the day's usage (filtration/salt-chlorine generation) ...based off my research and understanding

I agree. If you need two levels of gpm/psi then two pumps will beat a VFD. If load is all over the place, then a VFD makes sense.

Posted By jonr on 01 Aug 2012 03:53 PM
I agree. If you need two levels of gpm/psi then two pumps will beat a VFD. If load is all over the place, then a VFD makes sense.

Except when you have to purchase the second pump

Aloha Brock, I am the Lorentz Distributor for the Hawaii Islands and I will tell you that sized and installed properly Lorentz will provide you with all the power you need for a perfect pool. On July 28TH we just opened the first commercial swimming pool that is completely powered by the sun. 48 Trina 185 watt modules power 3 PS1800 Lorentz Pool Pumps without any AC power or back up. According to the Health Department we needed to turn the entire volume of water (105,00 gallons) every 6 hours. We accomplished this and made history when we started up this new system on July 28Th, 2012 @ 8:30 in the morning. At 8:31 a.m. we were pumping 115 gallons per minute per pump. That is 345 gallons per minute, 20,700 gallons per hour and 124,200 every six hours which exceeds our needs. So as you can see it is very possible. If you have any questions you can always call me and I can help you or direct you to an installer near you. Mahalo, Michael

Circulating your swimming pool water 24 hours a day is significant part of your electricity bill during the swimming season? A high volume DC solar pump can run solar panel direct during daylight hours to keep your pool in good condition with no energy expense.
The AC pump is on the right and is available for backup on cloudy or overcast days if needed.
For further info about solar power pump you have to visit polygroup which is the better place.

There are two basic types SWH systems, passive and active. In both, water is heated in a solar collector which is usually a flat, insulated box with a glass plate on top and a metal plate at the bottom with copper pipe inside. The efficiency of both systems is about the same and each has its advantages and disadvantages.No pump is required in a passive system. The tank also contains an electric backup heating element to heat water.