We found a source that we can get Better Bilt, MI windows for an super low price and was wondering if anyone was familiar with them. I googled them and found a little info. They don't seem bad. We are on a very tight budget with our ICF and can not afford the $27,000 estimate we got for the Andersen 400 windows.

Used to be known as Metal Industries. Plainly speaking they used to have one the worst windows on the market. I see by their website they are now part of CERTAINTEED a company that also produced a substandard window. Maybe things have changed. I'm not sure where you live but there are many regional window manufacturers that make a decent product.

Thanks for the reply.

I have another question and please excuse my ignorance when it comes to windows (and many other things) Do you have to buy a special type of windows to fit in an ICF. I'm looking at many non retail sources for windows, so I'm having a hard time figuring out what will work. Here's a description of one I'm looking at and I'm not sure what the J channel is and if it would work on my windows.
vinyl, low E insulated, double hung sash, built in J channel on exterior, grids between the glass, have a poplar extension jamb for painting

Thanks for the help!

any window should work in a icf home. a question i have is why if your wanting vinyl windows did the andersen dealer price a wood clad window? How many windows do you have and in what sizes? where do you live. if you give me sizes i could work up an estimate on what they might cost for the windows you want in vinyl. email me at [email protected]

bebe,

Before shopping for windows you need to decide where in the ICF opening you plan to install the window.   Do you plan to install them flush with the outer edge of the ICF foam or somewhere within the deep opening.  Nailing flanges (fins) will work well with the flush installation.  You should not need fins if the windows are mounted within the deep opening unless the window bucks extend into the opening beyond the ICF foam.  I think of J-channels being used to terminate and hide the vinyl siding at the window.  If you plan to use stucco or brick then you should not need J-channels.  You can learn more about which window and options are needed by pricing band name windows.  After gaining the knowledge needed then you can price the windows anywhere you want to.  Keep asking if you have more questions.

To add to Alton's informative post, the windows without nailing flanges are often referred to as "replacement" style windows (because if you are replacing old windows on an existing house you can't use nailing flanges since the siding is covering up the house framing).

Personally I think the replacement style looks better on an ICF house, or SIP house for that matter, because you can set them into the window opening a bit, giving your wall a thicker, and therefore better, quality look from the exterior. Besides, I think those nailing flanges make it too easy to screw up the flashing installation and end up with leaks (just my opinion though).

Flashing tape must be installed in the correct sequence.  Some window installers are now using mastic instead of flashing tape.  I have heard some people say it is harder to properly flash an inset (replacement) window.

Alton, I've heard people say that, too. But if you think about the structure, nailing flange windows are set onto the exterior of the framing, while replacement style are set into the framing. The nailing flange is just asking to be infiltrated.

Jelly,

You may be right.  The way I was taught to flash a window was to use 6" wide tape on the sides and top.  This 6" width of tape overlapped the 1.5" wide nailing flange completely up to the window and then about 4" over the ICF foam.  I know the exterior wall finish will cover the tape but I am still curious if the tape will ever lose its grip.

Have you designed/built the house yet and do you have any flexibility? There are a huge number of bone-yard and surplus windows available at the moment - extras and canceled projects. We built the house around the windows. For bone-yard I don't think that we paid more than $100 for a window, usually much less. Most are Low-E, 0.35U or better. Some are installed/removed but still with labels. One nice triple-glazed 0.27U argon filled for $25, odd size, hence the price. For the most part you can find windows that look about the same, but if you care, install all nice new windows in the front and the vinyl bone-yard in the back/side. (Put nice Wood Clad Anderson 400's in the front, I doubt anyone will care elsewhere so long as you have the energy performance).

The obvious downside is that you need to put in the sweat-equity to find the windows and do the research on what you need/want. Upside, you can feel good about using windows that might otherwise hit the dump and you can save some money.

Incidentally I do have one MI window. Doesn't seem too bad, the energy specs are OK, Low E, ~0.37U as I recall, can't vouch for longevity, or how well it will perform in the future, but at the moment it seems fine.

We have not finalized the plans yet, that's why I've been looking for cheaper alternatives. I have 39 windows and most are pretty large. I did get a better quote today from a builder supply company for about $8,000. Atrium windows, Low-E Argon, u factor: 0.32, vinyl. That's much better than the 28,000 quote for Andersen. We are on a tight budget so we don't need the best now, we just want to get the house closed up and work slowly from there. We can upgrade in the future once we're in the house. Where are you finding the surplus deals stonecaveman?

Th $8K doesn't sound too bad. There's a thread somewhere about Argon/no Argon and whether the argon will stay in the window, might want to read it and see if the Argon makes sense to you (I'm not really sure). We have a little over half that number of windows and are probably up close to $2K, including a couple of replacements we had to buy new to fit an exact opening (one tempered).

I find the windows on Craigslist mainly, or any classified list (I bought a bunch of windows in Salt Lake City from the KSL website). If you're in a big metro area then you should have no problem, but you'll spend some time driving. Also, if, for aesthetic or other reasons you absolutely must have a particular size, then this approach probably won't work. It's not difficult to find 4 or more matching windows, but if you want 5x4 and can't live with 6x4 or 5x3.5 then you're going to have trouble.

Slightly aside, if you're on a budget, I'd recommend the book by Fernando Pages Ruiz called "Building an Affordable House". It's about building quality houses inexpensively. For example, if you want a big window, it's often more cost effective to put in multiple smaller windows. Rather than an 8x5,you might consider three windows that would make up the same space, and if you put them together the appearance will be about the same. Matching big windows are hard to find the boneyards, but smaller windows are plentiful - especially odd dimensions like tall and skinny. You'll also save on headers. We actually have an 8x5 window, the SE spec'd 3 9.5x1.75LVL - about $150 of engineered lumber - the window was $25. Three 3x5 windows would have used a double 2x10 for about $20. Trim around all three, not individually, so it brings them together as a group.

Lots of good suggestions in the book. Build a simple square or rectangular house and add architecture features to that. Don't put an overhang at the rake, add architectural awnings if you want the shading (he also doesn't always recommend and overhang at the eaves). I really like the idea of staining, polishing and grooving the concrete slab so that you get the appearance of a tiled floor with minimal added expense. Many suggestions on sealing the envelope inexpensively - effective use of drywall and gaskets to make the interior tight, etc. etc.

I would not recommend buying several different style windows for your house. if you choose to sell your house later and the homeowner sees that none of the windows match that will be a big turn off. also using windows that are left-over from a job could mean no warranty. the warranty from most manufactureres are for the original owner which means if something happens to the glass (seal failure) you will be out the cost of the glass and cost of labor which may mean your paying just as much in the long run as you would for a new window with a warranty.

We're a little off-topic, but I would say that the window choice is up to the designer. It certainly would make sense to me to have a different windows front and rear - assuming that works with the design. I think if you have a big formal front room and the master bedroom above it you could do expensive, stained wood windows and faux beams with vinyl in the kitchen study, back bedrooms, garage, etc. and actually increase your resale value/potential for a given budget. Good curb appeal and quality interior where potential buyers would care about it. I don't think the window in the side bathroom would help you sell the house - especially if there's painting/maintenance associated with it. It would take some thought and design effort to make it look good inside an out, but like sizing headers for load rather than just using 3 2x12's I think you'd come out ahead.

And it's a personal choice. I'll go with low maintenance vinyl, that provides good energy performance at a lower cost. My sister wouldn't touch them. She wants the appearance of wood even if they cost more, she has to paint them, and the energy rating is not as good.

I hear you on the warranty and left over windows, it's not an approach I'd recommend to anyone who isn't closely involved with the whole process or who wants everything just-so. One thing to bear in mind however, is that a number of the windows I have were liquidated from a window manufacturer now out of business. The warranty on that manufacturers windows are useless whether you paid full price or liquidation prices. So if the warranty is important to you, you'd need to speculate on the stability of the manufacturer before buying the windows.

I look at the advances made in window technology in the last 10 years and figure that in another 10 or so I'm going to want to change out the windows to take advantage of future advances. I have R33 SIP walls and affordable windows don't get much better than R3 or R4! I'm hoping for at least 4x that in the next 10 years!!

I agree with the warranty issues. We often sell "bone yard" windows but don't offer our warranty with them. We just experienced a large supplier of ours going out of business and have to break the news to some of our long term customers that they no longer have a manufacturer waranty. One of the benefits of buying from a large company like us is that we have been in business for over 38 years and will do everything we can to take care of our customers.

As far as new technology goes check out the Serious window. We just became a dealer for them in Portland, OR. They have very impressive products. Their lower line (725 series) has u-values of .19 with an R-value of 5.6, and they have a glass package that will allow you to get a higher solar heat gain (.42) if desirable. These windows are actually priced reasonable given their performance. They also come in 5 colors, are paintable, and have oak or fir interior options. If anyone would like more information let me know. Atrium is a good choice for vinyl. They also have a triple glazed window that can get your u-value down to a .22. We have something for everyone it's just a matter of performance requirements and design. Making these decisions up front makes for a much smoother process and you will eliminate any possibility of disappointment in the end.

I cannot myself vouch for the veracity of the claims, but when I was looking for windows, vinyl windows were generally panned as not reliable. The vinyl tends to shrink, twist, turn, and come apart. I was told there are cases of vinyl window sashes pulling away from the glazing within a few years. The only vinyl window one retired million dollar house builder, who posts on JLC Online forums, would consider is Vinyltek from Canada. They have a steel frame inside the vinyl to provide stability. But they cost more than Andersen. In fact he said they were the best window made, period.

There is a lot of discussion on the JLCOnline about windows. You may want to take a read through there. It's the forum of the Journal of Light Construction.

Don't short change yourself by going cheap on windows. Put in the best windows you can possible pay for, even if you have to put vinyl on your floors instead of carpet and tile! Vinyl floor covering will be a lot easier to replace in a few years than will vinyl windows.

Double hung windows look great. In fact I wanted to use them. But, double hung are not as air tight as casement windows. If energy efficiency is high on your priority list seriously consider casement rather than double hung or sliding windows.