Serious Windows - Feedback?
Last Post 25 Mar 2012 10:02 AM by www.greenss.net. 46 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 3123 > >>
Author Messages
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
25 Feb 2012 04:30 PM
Anyone here use Serious Windows? They have performance numbers that rival the German window companies. Looking for some feedback, good or bad. I am considering using them on my home.

Serious Windows

Also, the FTC settled some type of dispute with Serious Windows over energy claims:

FTC Dispute



"Five companies that sell replacement windows in numerous states will have to stop making exaggerated and unsupported claims about the energy efficiency of their windows, and how much money consumers could save on their heating and cooling bills by having them installed, under settlements with the Federal Trade Commission. The settlements prohibit the companies from making these types of deceptive claims.


The FTC's complaints allege the five companies engaged in deceptive practices by making unsupported energy efficiency and money-savings claims – in some cases, that consumers could cut their energy bills in half by using replacement windows alone. The companies named in the settlements are: Gorell Enterprises, Inc.; Long Fence & Home, LLLP; Serious Energy, Inc.; THV Holdings LLC; and Winchester Industries.

Serious Energy, Inc. Based in California, Serious Energy provides its dealers with marketing materials, including brochures and other information on its website. These materials have included claims such as, "Guaranteed to reduce your heating and cooling use by up to 49%." Serious Energy also offered heating and cooling reduction pledges, varying by dealer, and promised consumers would be paid up to $500 if they did not realize these savings within one year of when the windows were installed. The FTC alleged that Serious Energy's savings claims for the advertised windows were unsubstantiated.
"



From what I read, it appears that the lawsuit was not going after the U values or R Values that the manufacturer made, but more so after the claims of 50% reduction in energy bills and other such money saving claims. As far as the windows designs and values, they did not mentioned those, so I would assume those are intact.


Thermal Sash Window and Door SystemsUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
03 Mar 2012 06:28 PM
Serious windows do have some impressive numbers. Some of their products are set up with many layers of film stacked inside the glass package. These are more of a "see how energy efficient our glass unit is" than what a homeowner would actually buy. However, if you compare their "standard" low e glass package with other good glass packages in the industry, you will find them jusst as good if not better. Just make sure you are comparing the proverbial apples to apples.
michaeldUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:35

--
08 Mar 2012 06:48 PM
Serious builds with the same frame pultrusions as Cascadia and Inline. They are an inline window.

They insulate them a little bit differently, that is both good and bad depending upon who you talk to.

The suspended film IGU is a disaster waiting to happen. This technology has been around for 30 yrs. Ask yourself why the entire industry hasn't switched over to suspended film if it is so doggone good?

Serious has put together a fabulous marketing campaign. A lot of builders try them once or twice, and never again.

Whatever you buy, Canadian fiberglass or Euro, buy something with three genuine panes of glass. Mylar film is no substitute.
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
08 Mar 2012 10:49 PM
Posted By michaeld on 08 Mar 2012 06:48 PM
Serious builds with the same frame pultrusions as Cascadia and Inline. They are an inline window.

They insulate them a little bit differently, that is both good and bad depending upon who you talk to.

The suspended film IGU is a disaster waiting to happen. This technology has been around for 30 yrs. Ask yourself why the entire industry hasn't switched over to suspended film if it is so doggone good?

Serious has put together a fabulous marketing campaign. A lot of builders try them once or twice, and never again.

Whatever you buy, Canadian fiberglass or Euro, buy something with three genuine panes of glass. Mylar film is no substitute.

I am not dead-set on Serious Windows, just considering them, so I am looking at many other manufacturers.

I see you don't like the suspended film idea. How can Serious Windows have a lifetime warranty if the windows are failing on a regular basis? Wouldn't this put them out of business with warranty payouts?

Three panes is the Euro/Canadian way but finding them is hard to do. Do you have any recommendations for U.S. companies that dabble in the 3 pane design. Not the Pella wanna-be 3-pane design, an actual THREE pane design.


ICFHybridUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2860

--
09 Mar 2012 08:30 AM
Three panes is the Euro/Canadian way but finding them is hard to do. Do you have any recommendations for U.S. companies that dabble in the 3 pane design. Not the Pella wanna-be 3-pane design, an actual THREE pane design.
I have Pella Designer Series windows. They have three panes of glass. They were pretty heavy during installation.
michaeldUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:35

--
09 Mar 2012 01:28 PM
Posted By Lbear on 08 Mar 2012 10:49 PM
Posted By michaeld on 08 Mar 2012 06:48 PM
Serious builds with the same frame pultrusions as Cascadia and Inline. They are an inline window.

They insulate them a little bit differently, that is both good and bad depending upon who you talk to.

The suspended film IGU is a disaster waiting to happen. This technology has been around for 30 yrs. Ask yourself why the entire industry hasn't switched over to suspended film if it is so doggone good?

Serious has put together a fabulous marketing campaign. A lot of builders try them once or twice, and never again.

Whatever you buy, Canadian fiberglass or Euro, buy something with three genuine panes of glass. Mylar film is no substitute.

I am not dead-set on Serious Windows, just considering them, so I am looking at many other manufacturers.

I see you don't like the suspended film idea. How can Serious Windows have a lifetime warranty if the windows are failing on a regular basis? Wouldn't this put them out of business with warranty payouts?

Three panes is the Euro/Canadian way but finding them is hard to do. Do you have any recommendations for U.S. companies that dabble in the 3 pane design. Not the Pella wanna-be 3-pane design, an actual THREE pane design.


Serious hasn't really been in business long enough to suffer a bunch of catastrophic warranty failures.  But the history of Southwall Industries, Hurd windows...etc...this is well known.  Do some research.  Walk through the Denver airport.

Additionally, I haven't seen their warranty first hand, thus I'm not sure if "discoloration" is subject to a warranty claim, but I assure you I would be bent if my IGU's starting looking yellow.

A lot of companies have sold poor quality products and offered lifetime warranties.  They will happily give you new glass units, but who is going to install them?  This work isn't free.  It comes out of the homeowner's pocket even though they have a "lifetime warranty."

I understand your point regarding finding "true" triple glaze.  You will probably need to look to Canada and Europe.  The important thing to note is buy legitimate tri pane.  IGU's in the range of 1 3/8" overall.  32-40mm in thickness.



peteinnyUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
09 Mar 2012 10:16 PM
Lbear,
I too was considering Serious as an option. I know someone who just built a zero net energy house and used them. I was told to stay away. Too many issues with quality and with timely delivery. I then spoke with a distributor that I know who carries them and though he did not bash them he did say that they have had numerous orders with quality control issues. The company did make good on the issues but not in a timely fashion.
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
09 Mar 2012 11:07 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 09 Mar 2012 08:30 AM
I have Pella Designer Series windows. They have three panes of glass. They were pretty heavy during installation.

The Pella triple pane windows are NOT a true triple pane window.

The Pella triple pane window is not a sealed window. The interior glass panel is removable. This makes the Pella triple pane window more like a standard double pane window with a snap-on panel of glass on the inside. Obviously with this set up, there is only one space that can hold the argon gas, as there is really only one sealed compartment.


LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
09 Mar 2012 11:09 PM
Posted By michaeld on 09 Mar 2012 01:28 PM

I understand your point regarding finding "true" triple glaze.  You will probably need to look to Canada and Europe.  The important thing to note is buy legitimate tri pane.  IGU's in the range of 1 3/8" overall.  32-40mm in thickness.




I am keeping my options open and I talking with a company that utilizes a true triple pane design, based on German/European window models, but they are based here in the USA.
peteinnyUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
09 Mar 2012 11:50 PM
Your right about the Pella's. I was also looking at the Marvin ultimate casement. They now have a true triple pane. I thought they were a good option. I would like to go with one of the US major window makers but they are so far behind as compared to the European.
Lee DodgeUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:678

--
10 Mar 2012 11:41 AM
Posted By Lbear on 09 Mar 2012 11:07 PM

The Pella triple pane windows are NOT a true triple pane window.

The Pella triple pane window is not a sealed window. The interior glass panel is removable. This makes the Pella triple pane window more like a standard double pane window with a snap-on panel of glass on the inside. Obviously with this set up, there is only one space that can hold the argon gas, as there is really only one sealed compartment.



The Pella Designer series is a triple-pane window, having three panes between outside and inside.  More precisely, the insulated glass unit (IGU) contains the outer two panes of glass, and the third pane has its own separate seals.  The third pane does not snap-on.  It pivots out from the rest of the window with a hinge action from the base, and does "snap" back into place to compress the seals when closed.  This seal compression is similar to what is used on a tilt-and-turn window.  It provides an independent seal so that if a leak occurred around the IGU, there would be another seal that air would need to penetrate.  The spacing between the second pane and the third pane (numbering from outside to inside) is larger than optimum for best thermal performance, being about 28 mm (1.12"), while the optimum spacing for thermal performance is more like 16 mm (0.63" or 5/8") for a triple-pane window according to Cardinal Glass (Figure 13-1 in http://www.cardinalcorp.com/wp-cont...ochure.pdf).  This spacing was chosen to allow miniature blinds to be inserted between the second and third panes to keep them dust-free, but is large enough to allow significant convective heat transfer between those panes, degrading thermal performance.  As you say, this space between the second and third windows cannot be filled with argon or other low thermal conductivity gases, so that also cuts down on thermal performance for many applications.  Thus, this type of triple-pane window has a higher U-value than is possible with other triple pane designs.   

The use of the mini-blinds between the second and third panes could be used for solar shading, providing a reflective surface before the low-e coating which is on surface number 5 for the high solar heat gain windows (numbered outside to inside).  This would be an advantage compared to having shades interior to the window that would need to reflect sunlight and reradiate infrared energy from heating back through 6 surfaces, with one of them being a coated surface that reflects a lot of the infrared energy.  These blinds would be more convenient to use than external shades that usually require a trip outside, and that are subject to wind loads, icing, etc.  This use of the sealed mini-blinds with high SHGC windows might make a convenient way to get high solar gain when desired, while providing a mechanism to fairly efficiently reject solar heat when needed.      

Lee Dodge, Residential Energy Laboratory, in a net-zero source energy modified production house
peteinnyUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
10 Mar 2012 12:46 PM
Good point Lee.
peteinnyUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:85

--
10 Mar 2012 01:11 PM
If interested I got the U-values from a Pella rep on some casements I am pricing in the designer series.

THERMAL PERFORMANCE OF GLAZING SYSTEM CHOSEN:
1. DESIGNER CASEMENTS TOTAL UNIT U = .26 VENTS AND .23 FIXED. 2. DESIGNER DOORS TOTAL UNIT U = ..25.
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
10 Mar 2012 02:50 PM
Posted By peteinny on 10 Mar 2012 01:11 PM
If interested I got the U-values from a Pella rep on some casements I am pricing in the designer series.

THERMAL PERFORMANCE OF GLAZING SYSTEM CHOSEN:
1. DESIGNER CASEMENTS TOTAL UNIT U = .26 VENTS AND .23 FIXED. 2. DESIGNER DOORS TOTAL UNIT U = ..25.

The Pella are "less expensive" than the true triple pane designs ( European-made Passivhaus windows) but if you look closer, the quality of the frame of a Pella is a lot thinner. Look at the extrusions, they are thinner and the glass is also thinner with the Pella. IMHO, Pella makes good windows but they are a mega-manufacturer and they cater mostly to mega-builder tract homes, there are better windows out there, like the Inline. As they say, you get what you pay for. The Inline is on the right and Pella on the left:




LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
10 Mar 2012 03:05 PM
Posted By peteinny on 09 Mar 2012 11:50 PM
Your right about the Pella's. I was also looking at the Marvin ultimate casement. They now have a true triple pane. I thought they were a good option. I would like to go with one of the US major window makers but they are so far behind as compared to the European.

If one looks at the whole window design technology, it is no secret that U.S. windows are well behind the learning and energy curve of European windows but companies like Intus (Washington DC) who utilize European engineering in their windows, are an alternative.

This also translates to our doors. If you ask any green build engineer, finding a high quality door here in the USA is very difficult if not impossible. German doors are built to a much higher quality standard than typical U.S. doors. Nothing like building an "energy" home and then having a 3' wide by 7' tall thermal hole in your home, aka the front door. The main drawback to German doors is that they are very expensive. The other option would be a Polish designed door. Drewexim doors are manufactured in Koszalin, Poland. One U.S. importer and distributor of Drewexim doors is Fenestrations Plus of Bangor, Maine.





Once you see a real window design like this Intus, when it closes and locks like a bank vault, you will never look at American designed windows the same.



EnerLuxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:20

--
10 Mar 2012 03:27 PM
Lbear, I think you are misleading people into thinking that only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows. Many American casement windows have just as good or better air and water structural performance numbers than premium European tilt and turn windows.
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
10 Mar 2012 03:42 PM
Posted By EnerLux on 10 Mar 2012 03:27 PM
Lbear, I think you are misleading people into thinking that only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows. Many American casement windows have just as good or better air and water structural performance numbers than premium European tilt and turn windows.

Hello, welcome to GBT! Since this is your FIRST post on this forum, I would like to welcome you!

With which U.S based window company are you affiliated with?


BTW - I never said that, "only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows". It has nothing to do with tilt and turn, it has to do with the ENTIRE European engineered window choice and design. They are a decade ahead of any American designed window design, that is a fact. They are the Prius of electric cars and US companies are the Chevy Volt of electric cars (overpriced with problems).
Lee DodgeUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:678

--
10 Mar 2012 04:17 PM
Posted By Lbear on 10 Mar 2012 03:42 PM

BTW - I never said that, "only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows". It has nothing to do with tilt and turn, it has to do with the ENTIRE European engineered window choice and design. They are a decade ahead of any American designed window design, that is a fact. They are the Prius of electric cars and US companies are the Chevy Volt of electric cars (overpriced with problems).
So Europe is the Prius of electric cars?  Gosh, I always thought the Japan was the source of Prius cars. 

Lee Dodge, Residential Energy Laboratory, in a net-zero source energy modified production house
EnerLuxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:20

--
10 Mar 2012 04:29 PM
I am not on the board promoting any single window. I am heavily involved in the window industry and have designed composite and fiberglass casement/awning/picture window systems that are currently on the market or will soon be on the market. I have experience on the extrusion side, manufacturing, installation, and sales. We can talk rainscreen principles, hardware design, DP ratings, solar tuning, installation methods, etc... all day, I just get annoyed when people paint this false image that ALL American products are 20 years behind Europe.
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2261
Avatar

--
10 Mar 2012 04:38 PM
Posted By Lee Dodge on 10 Mar 2012 04:17 PM
Posted By Lbear on 10 Mar 2012 03:42 PM

BTW - I never said that, "only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows". It has nothing to do with tilt and turn, it has to do with the ENTIRE European engineered window choice and design. They are a decade ahead of any American designed window design, that is a fact. They are the Prius of electric cars and US companies are the Chevy Volt of electric cars (overpriced with problems).
So Europe is the Prius of electric cars?  Gosh, I always thought the Japan was the source of Prius cars. 


My analogy was apparently lost. I was comparing the electric car design, one which is US (Volt) and the other which is Prius (Japanese) BUT in regards to windows, the US design (Pella, Marvin, etc) are like the Volt and the European Design windows are like the Prius. In other words, the US technology in regards to energy windows is lacking. The Volt is poor, unreliable & expensive engineering and the Prius is light-years ahead of it. Pella is not state of the art, they are decent but nowhere near where Europeans are in regards to energy windows.

If you research, you will see that the U.S. is starting to lack in the global market in terms of energy conservation. We are ruled by the oil companies who are in bed with the politicians. In Europe where fossil fuel is expensive and green energy builds are not optional but necessary, the engineers come up with designs that work to save energy.
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 3123 > >>


Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: ggriffith52 New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 4 User Count Overall: 28582
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 152 Members Members: 7 Total Total: 159

GreenBuildingTalk

Welcome to GreenBuildingTalk, the largest, most active forum on green building. While you can browse the site as a guest, you need to register in order to post.

Register Member Login Forum Home

Search Directory

Professionals Products

Get Free Quotes

Tell us about your building project and get free quotes from green building professionals. It's fast & easy! Click here to get your free quote.

Site Sponsors

For Advertising Info:
Call 866-316-5300 or 312-223-1600

Professionals Serving Your Area:

Newsletter

Read the latest GBT Newsletter!

Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement  Free Quotes  Professional Directory  Advertising Programs