peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 07 Mar 2012 08:34 AM |
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Has anyone had any experience with Marvin Ultimate Tri pane windows? I was hoping to find a wood interior window that was American made with a decent u factor. It appears that we in the US are very limited on our choices. Anderson has nothing while Pella has a triple pane that is really a double pane with a glass that opens. I think Anderson bought Eagle who makes a triple pane but I don't know much about it. Any suggestions without going to a fiberglass and out of the country? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 07 Mar 2012 09:08 AM |
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Pella has an American made wood interior window with a decent u-factor. If cost is no factor, then keep after the Marvins, else look at Pella. |
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 07 Mar 2012 04:11 PM |
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Thanks, Have you had any dealings with Eagle, who was acquired by Anderson? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 07 Mar 2012 11:29 PM |
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Not me. I tried to go Marvin because I heard you could do more with them, but the pricing was out of the budget every time. So I went with Pella. I've now installed them and Pella looks like a product with identical quality to Marvin, but they work hard to control costs. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 08 Mar 2012 04:24 AM |
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Posted By peteinny on 07 Mar 2012 08:34 AM
Has anyone had any experience with Marvin Ultimate Tri pane windows? I was hoping to find a wood interior window that was American made with a decent u factor. It appears that we in the US are very limited on our choices. Anderson has nothing while Pella has a triple pane that is really a double pane with a glass that opens. I think Anderson bought Eagle who makes a triple pane but I don't know much about it. Any suggestions without going to a fiberglass and out of the country?
I'm in the research phase, just like you. Most American window companies are at least 10 years behind where Canadian and European windows are, in regards to thermal value. In Europe, the Passivhaus designers will not go with a higher than 0.14 U-Value for windows. For a Passivhaus they utilize 0.14 or lower U-Value. This is a number that most American window manufacturers cannot even come close to.
GreenBuildingAdvisor Article - AlphaWin Windows from Holz & Form of Germany are being distributed by BuildingEvolution of Vancouver, B.C. (778-317-0035).
- Bieber windows (manufactured in Waldhambach, France) are distributed by Bieber Architectural Windows in Tustin, California.
- Energate windows (manufactured in Speyer, Germany) are distributed by H Window Co. in Ashland, Wisc. (800-843-4929).
- Heinzmann windows (made with Passivhaus-certified Veka frames) are available from European Windows in Gainesville, Georgia.
- Internorm windows are available from Holz & Form, a distributor in Vancouver, British Columbia.
- Intus Windows from Lithuania are being distributed by Intus Consulting of Washington, D.C. (888-380-9940).
- Optiwin windows are available from Peak Building Products in Watertown, Minnesota.
- Pazen EnerSign windows are available from Quantum Builders in Berkeley, California.
- Schüco Windows are being distributed by European Architectural Supply of Lincoln, Mass. (781-647-4432).
- Silber windows (manufactured in Mistelbach, Austria) are distributed by Red Cougar Enterprises in Cochrane, Alberta.
- Unilux windows — including their UltraTherm model — are available from several U.S. distributors, including Gilkey Windows
of Cincinnati, Ohio (513-769-4527), Hawkeye Window and Door of
Waterloo, Iowa (319-232-3220), and New England Fenestration in
Massachusetts (978-530-7425).
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 08 Mar 2012 08:22 AM |
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Lbear,
Great list of suppliers and window types. Its a shame that the us is so far behind. Thanks |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 09 Mar 2012 02:01 AM |
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Posted By peteinny on 08 Mar 2012 08:22 AM
Lbear,
Great list of suppliers and window types. Its a shame that the us is so far behind. Thanks
I am going to try and see how much the German Unilux windows are through the US supplier, Gilkey. Those German designed windows are some serious pieces of hardware. They have a DP85 rating. That means they can take a 220MPH+ wind and suffer no deflection or breakage. Good luck doing that with a Marvin, Anderson or Pella. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 09 Mar 2012 08:09 AM |
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That means they can take a 220MPH+ wind and suffer no deflection or breakage. Good luck doing that with a Marvin, Anderson or Pella.
If you are expecting 220+ mph winds in your area, I suggest you look at windows with hurricane-resistant glass as breakage from flying debris might be of some concern |
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 09 Mar 2012 08:44 AM |
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I don't know about the 220 mph but the efficiency levels are great. The only problem is of course is price and service. How long will it take to get the windows? If there is a problem, how long to fix it? Just a few of my concerns going with something foreign. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 09 Mar 2012 08:48 AM |
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I got my Pella Designer Series in three weeks from date of order, including the hurricane-resistant glazing. The triple paned ones were 5 weeks out, but that also included the Holidays. |
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 09 Mar 2012 08:56 AM |
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ICF,
Are you happy with the Pella Designer? I am considering them seriously because of the price. I have heard of issues with the rolled aluminum and cranks. Do you see any issues as of yet? |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 09 Mar 2012 09:38 AM |
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ICF, Are you happy with the Pella Designer? So far, yes. I see no difference in materials, fit/finish, whatever from Marvins. Except price, of course. Marvin seemed ...almost proud of their higher pricing. I have heard of issues with the rolled aluminum and cranks What issues, in particular? It appears to me that the basic crank mechanism is common to lots of mfrs. My windows push the size envelope and the cranks seem fine, even for the biggest ones. I have maybe 70 units and there were some minor issues, but, as I understand, they were fewer than "normal", whatever that is. My Construction Manager, who does high-end builds, immediately started buying Pellas. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 09 Mar 2012 09:47 AM |
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Some years ago I heard of problems with Pella windows that had rolled aluminum covering the wood sashes. One of my builder friends earned some money by replacing rotted out sashes on other builder's homes. This problem may be corrected in the design by now. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 09 Mar 2012 10:08 AM |
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Is this the standard "metal clad" wood window? I think Marvin, in particular, (don't know about Pella) got hard hit by a supplier blunder in wood treatment more than 10 years ago. It only lasted for a short period before it was remedied, but, of course, a large company will put a lot of windows out by then. Problems will be discovered for literally decades following that. Things can happen in the drive to keep supply going and costs down, but actual design mistakes won't be carried for too long.
If you hear of "some" problems from a particular manufacturer and "some" problems from a company that puts out ten times more windows, I think you need to be judicious in determining what/where the magnitude of the problem really is.
From what I can see, local installation practices are everything, although everyone likes to tie issues to a particular big name manufacturer or another. I can tell you more stories about Marvin and Pella if you want to pm me. |
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 09 Mar 2012 10:10 AM |
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Thanks, It is good to know that someone has some success with them. When you are putting a large part of your budget into windows and they play such an important roll in the energy process one has to raise questions. Although the Germans have some great numbers on paper, I have a problem with going overseas for such a large ticket item. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 09 Mar 2012 10:29 AM |
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I have noticed that homeowners tend to look at, and through :-), windows differently than engineers might. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 09 Mar 2012 12:30 PM |
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ICFHybrid,
Amen to that. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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michaeld
New Member
Posts:35
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| 09 Mar 2012 01:33 PM |
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All of those brands mentioned are European and will come with a severe added expense of shipping. Figure 5000-6000. They may be "sold" through a U.S. dealer, but they are manufactured in Europe.
Eagle does an ok wood clad window. Not my favorite but Ok.
Marvin makes a nice product.
Loewen, in Canada, has done true triple glazing for ages.
Fine a local dealer for one of these brands and you can probably avoid the added cost of freight/shipping.
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Lee Dodge
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 09 Mar 2012 03:22 PM |
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Posted By Lbear on 08 Mar 2012 04:24 AM
I'm in the research phase, just like you. Most American window companies are at least 10 years behind where Canadian and European windows are, in regards to thermal value. In Europe, the Passivhaus designers will not go with a higher than 0.14 U-Value for windows. For a Passivhaus they utilize 0.14 or lower U-Value. This is a number that most American window manufacturers cannot even come close to.
The Europeans often use center-of-glass rather than total-window U-values, and that is also true for the PassivHaus standards which use both. Of course, the center-of-glass U-values are significantly lower than the whole window U-values. There are also other differences in the measurement standards as discussed by Martin Holladay in Green Building Advisor: From http://www.vereco.ca/green_document...083821.pdf (10 year ago): "Calculating U-Factors The lower a window’s U-factor, the better it is at resisting heat flow. In the U.S., U-factors are calculated according to a standard established by the National Fenestration Rating Council Passivhaus Windows http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/book/export/html/14852 1 of 5 09-10-02 10:09 AM(NRFC). The U-factor shown on the familiar NFRC labels is a whole-window rating that takes into account the different U-factors of the window’s frame, sash, edge of glass, and center of glass. Europeans calculate their window U-factors differently from North Americans. I’m not just talking about the units of measurement; it’s easy enough to convert W/ m2•°C to BTU/ ft2•h•°F. (Just divide by 5.678.) I’m talking about the formula used to account for the varying U-factors of the window’s frame, the edge of glass, and the center of glass. The issue is complicated and technical; suffice it to say that North American window manufacturers contend that the whole-window U-factors of North American windows, calculated according the NFRC requirements, are not as bad as a direct comparison with European window numbers might lead one to believe." (The whole article makes good reading.) I looked a little for a more definitive comparison of U-values measured by American standards versus European standards on the same window, but without success. My suggestion is "buyer beware." |
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Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 10 Mar 2012 01:13 PM |
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Here are the U values for the Pella Designer series windows if interested.
THERMAL PERFORMANCE OF GLAZING SYSTEM CHOSEN:
1. DESIGNER CASEMENTS TOTAL UNIT U = .26 VENTS AND .23 FIXED. 2. DESIGNER DOORS TOTAL UNIT U = ..25.
I am waiting on a quote from Marvin to see what the difference will be. |
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