Serious Windows - Feedback?
Last Post 25 Mar 2012 10:02 AM by www.greenss.net. 46 Replies.
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LbearUser is Offline
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25 Feb 2012 04:30 PM
Anyone here use Serious Windows? They have performance numbers that rival the German window companies. Looking for some feedback, good or bad. I am considering using them on my home.

Serious Windows

Also, the FTC settled some type of dispute with Serious Windows over energy claims:

FTC Dispute



"Five companies that sell replacement windows in numerous states will have to stop making exaggerated and unsupported claims about the energy efficiency of their windows, and how much money consumers could save on their heating and cooling bills by having them installed, under settlements with the Federal Trade Commission. The settlements prohibit the companies from making these types of deceptive claims.


The FTC's complaints allege the five companies engaged in deceptive practices by making unsupported energy efficiency and money-savings claims – in some cases, that consumers could cut their energy bills in half by using replacement windows alone. The companies named in the settlements are: Gorell Enterprises, Inc.; Long Fence & Home, LLLP; Serious Energy, Inc.; THV Holdings LLC; and Winchester Industries.

Serious Energy, Inc. Based in California, Serious Energy provides its dealers with marketing materials, including brochures and other information on its website. These materials have included claims such as, "Guaranteed to reduce your heating and cooling use by up to 49%." Serious Energy also offered heating and cooling reduction pledges, varying by dealer, and promised consumers would be paid up to $500 if they did not realize these savings within one year of when the windows were installed. The FTC alleged that Serious Energy's savings claims for the advertised windows were unsubstantiated.
"



From what I read, it appears that the lawsuit was not going after the U values or R Values that the manufacturer made, but more so after the claims of 50% reduction in energy bills and other such money saving claims. As far as the windows designs and values, they did not mentioned those, so I would assume those are intact.


Thermal Sash Window and Door SystemsUser is Offline
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03 Mar 2012 06:28 PM
Serious windows do have some impressive numbers. Some of their products are set up with many layers of film stacked inside the glass package. These are more of a "see how energy efficient our glass unit is" than what a homeowner would actually buy. However, if you compare their "standard" low e glass package with other good glass packages in the industry, you will find them jusst as good if not better. Just make sure you are comparing the proverbial apples to apples.
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08 Mar 2012 06:48 PM
Serious builds with the same frame pultrusions as Cascadia and Inline. They are an inline window.

They insulate them a little bit differently, that is both good and bad depending upon who you talk to.

The suspended film IGU is a disaster waiting to happen. This technology has been around for 30 yrs. Ask yourself why the entire industry hasn't switched over to suspended film if it is so doggone good?

Serious has put together a fabulous marketing campaign. A lot of builders try them once or twice, and never again.

Whatever you buy, Canadian fiberglass or Euro, buy something with three genuine panes of glass. Mylar film is no substitute.
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08 Mar 2012 10:49 PM
Posted By michaeld on 08 Mar 2012 06:48 PM
Serious builds with the same frame pultrusions as Cascadia and Inline. They are an inline window.

They insulate them a little bit differently, that is both good and bad depending upon who you talk to.

The suspended film IGU is a disaster waiting to happen. This technology has been around for 30 yrs. Ask yourself why the entire industry hasn't switched over to suspended film if it is so doggone good?

Serious has put together a fabulous marketing campaign. A lot of builders try them once or twice, and never again.

Whatever you buy, Canadian fiberglass or Euro, buy something with three genuine panes of glass. Mylar film is no substitute.

I am not dead-set on Serious Windows, just considering them, so I am looking at many other manufacturers.

I see you don't like the suspended film idea. How can Serious Windows have a lifetime warranty if the windows are failing on a regular basis? Wouldn't this put them out of business with warranty payouts?

Three panes is the Euro/Canadian way but finding them is hard to do. Do you have any recommendations for U.S. companies that dabble in the 3 pane design. Not the Pella wanna-be 3-pane design, an actual THREE pane design.


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09 Mar 2012 08:30 AM
Three panes is the Euro/Canadian way but finding them is hard to do. Do you have any recommendations for U.S. companies that dabble in the 3 pane design. Not the Pella wanna-be 3-pane design, an actual THREE pane design.
I have Pella Designer Series windows. They have three panes of glass. They were pretty heavy during installation.
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09 Mar 2012 01:28 PM
Posted By Lbear on 08 Mar 2012 10:49 PM
Posted By michaeld on 08 Mar 2012 06:48 PM
Serious builds with the same frame pultrusions as Cascadia and Inline. They are an inline window.

They insulate them a little bit differently, that is both good and bad depending upon who you talk to.

The suspended film IGU is a disaster waiting to happen. This technology has been around for 30 yrs. Ask yourself why the entire industry hasn't switched over to suspended film if it is so doggone good?

Serious has put together a fabulous marketing campaign. A lot of builders try them once or twice, and never again.

Whatever you buy, Canadian fiberglass or Euro, buy something with three genuine panes of glass. Mylar film is no substitute.

I am not dead-set on Serious Windows, just considering them, so I am looking at many other manufacturers.

I see you don't like the suspended film idea. How can Serious Windows have a lifetime warranty if the windows are failing on a regular basis? Wouldn't this put them out of business with warranty payouts?

Three panes is the Euro/Canadian way but finding them is hard to do. Do you have any recommendations for U.S. companies that dabble in the 3 pane design. Not the Pella wanna-be 3-pane design, an actual THREE pane design.


Serious hasn't really been in business long enough to suffer a bunch of catastrophic warranty failures.  But the history of Southwall Industries, Hurd windows...etc...this is well known.  Do some research.  Walk through the Denver airport.

Additionally, I haven't seen their warranty first hand, thus I'm not sure if "discoloration" is subject to a warranty claim, but I assure you I would be bent if my IGU's starting looking yellow.

A lot of companies have sold poor quality products and offered lifetime warranties.  They will happily give you new glass units, but who is going to install them?  This work isn't free.  It comes out of the homeowner's pocket even though they have a "lifetime warranty."

I understand your point regarding finding "true" triple glaze.  You will probably need to look to Canada and Europe.  The important thing to note is buy legitimate tri pane.  IGU's in the range of 1 3/8" overall.  32-40mm in thickness.



peteinnyUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2012 10:16 PM
Lbear,
I too was considering Serious as an option. I know someone who just built a zero net energy house and used them. I was told to stay away. Too many issues with quality and with timely delivery. I then spoke with a distributor that I know who carries them and though he did not bash them he did say that they have had numerous orders with quality control issues. The company did make good on the issues but not in a timely fashion.
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09 Mar 2012 11:07 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 09 Mar 2012 08:30 AM
I have Pella Designer Series windows. They have three panes of glass. They were pretty heavy during installation.

The Pella triple pane windows are NOT a true triple pane window.

The Pella triple pane window is not a sealed window. The interior glass panel is removable. This makes the Pella triple pane window more like a standard double pane window with a snap-on panel of glass on the inside. Obviously with this set up, there is only one space that can hold the argon gas, as there is really only one sealed compartment.


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09 Mar 2012 11:09 PM
Posted By michaeld on 09 Mar 2012 01:28 PM

I understand your point regarding finding "true" triple glaze.  You will probably need to look to Canada and Europe.  The important thing to note is buy legitimate tri pane.  IGU's in the range of 1 3/8" overall.  32-40mm in thickness.




I am keeping my options open and I talking with a company that utilizes a true triple pane design, based on German/European window models, but they are based here in the USA.
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09 Mar 2012 11:50 PM
Your right about the Pella's. I was also looking at the Marvin ultimate casement. They now have a true triple pane. I thought they were a good option. I would like to go with one of the US major window makers but they are so far behind as compared to the European.
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10 Mar 2012 11:41 AM
Posted By Lbear on 09 Mar 2012 11:07 PM

The Pella triple pane windows are NOT a true triple pane window.

The Pella triple pane window is not a sealed window. The interior glass panel is removable. This makes the Pella triple pane window more like a standard double pane window with a snap-on panel of glass on the inside. Obviously with this set up, there is only one space that can hold the argon gas, as there is really only one sealed compartment.



The Pella Designer series is a triple-pane window, having three panes between outside and inside.  More precisely, the insulated glass unit (IGU) contains the outer two panes of glass, and the third pane has its own separate seals.  The third pane does not snap-on.  It pivots out from the rest of the window with a hinge action from the base, and does "snap" back into place to compress the seals when closed.  This seal compression is similar to what is used on a tilt-and-turn window.  It provides an independent seal so that if a leak occurred around the IGU, there would be another seal that air would need to penetrate.  The spacing between the second pane and the third pane (numbering from outside to inside) is larger than optimum for best thermal performance, being about 28 mm (1.12"), while the optimum spacing for thermal performance is more like 16 mm (0.63" or 5/8") for a triple-pane window according to Cardinal Glass (Figure 13-1 in http://www.cardinalcorp.com/wp-cont...ochure.pdf).  This spacing was chosen to allow miniature blinds to be inserted between the second and third panes to keep them dust-free, but is large enough to allow significant convective heat transfer between those panes, degrading thermal performance.  As you say, this space between the second and third windows cannot be filled with argon or other low thermal conductivity gases, so that also cuts down on thermal performance for many applications.  Thus, this type of triple-pane window has a higher U-value than is possible with other triple pane designs.   

The use of the mini-blinds between the second and third panes could be used for solar shading, providing a reflective surface before the low-e coating which is on surface number 5 for the high solar heat gain windows (numbered outside to inside).  This would be an advantage compared to having shades interior to the window that would need to reflect sunlight and reradiate infrared energy from heating back through 6 surfaces, with one of them being a coated surface that reflects a lot of the infrared energy.  These blinds would be more convenient to use than external shades that usually require a trip outside, and that are subject to wind loads, icing, etc.  This use of the sealed mini-blinds with high SHGC windows might make a convenient way to get high solar gain when desired, while providing a mechanism to fairly efficiently reject solar heat when needed.      

Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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10 Mar 2012 12:46 PM
Good point Lee.
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10 Mar 2012 01:11 PM
If interested I got the U-values from a Pella rep on some casements I am pricing in the designer series.

THERMAL PERFORMANCE OF GLAZING SYSTEM CHOSEN:
1. DESIGNER CASEMENTS TOTAL UNIT U = .26 VENTS AND .23 FIXED. 2. DESIGNER DOORS TOTAL UNIT U = ..25.
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10 Mar 2012 02:50 PM
Posted By peteinny on 10 Mar 2012 01:11 PM
If interested I got the U-values from a Pella rep on some casements I am pricing in the designer series.

THERMAL PERFORMANCE OF GLAZING SYSTEM CHOSEN:
1. DESIGNER CASEMENTS TOTAL UNIT U = .26 VENTS AND .23 FIXED. 2. DESIGNER DOORS TOTAL UNIT U = ..25.

The Pella are "less expensive" than the true triple pane designs ( European-made Passivhaus windows) but if you look closer, the quality of the frame of a Pella is a lot thinner. Look at the extrusions, they are thinner and the glass is also thinner with the Pella. IMHO, Pella makes good windows but they are a mega-manufacturer and they cater mostly to mega-builder tract homes, there are better windows out there, like the Inline. As they say, you get what you pay for. The Inline is on the right and Pella on the left:




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10 Mar 2012 03:05 PM
Posted By peteinny on 09 Mar 2012 11:50 PM
Your right about the Pella's. I was also looking at the Marvin ultimate casement. They now have a true triple pane. I thought they were a good option. I would like to go with one of the US major window makers but they are so far behind as compared to the European.

If one looks at the whole window design technology, it is no secret that U.S. windows are well behind the learning and energy curve of European windows but companies like Intus (Washington DC) who utilize European engineering in their windows, are an alternative.

This also translates to our doors. If you ask any green build engineer, finding a high quality door here in the USA is very difficult if not impossible. German doors are built to a much higher quality standard than typical U.S. doors. Nothing like building an "energy" home and then having a 3' wide by 7' tall thermal hole in your home, aka the front door. The main drawback to German doors is that they are very expensive. The other option would be a Polish designed door. Drewexim doors are manufactured in Koszalin, Poland. One U.S. importer and distributor of Drewexim doors is Fenestrations Plus of Bangor, Maine.





Once you see a real window design like this Intus, when it closes and locks like a bank vault, you will never look at American designed windows the same.



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10 Mar 2012 03:27 PM
Lbear, I think you are misleading people into thinking that only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows. Many American casement windows have just as good or better air and water structural performance numbers than premium European tilt and turn windows.
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10 Mar 2012 03:42 PM
Posted By EnerLux on 10 Mar 2012 03:27 PM
Lbear, I think you are misleading people into thinking that only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows. Many American casement windows have just as good or better air and water structural performance numbers than premium European tilt and turn windows.

Hello, welcome to GBT! Since this is your FIRST post on this forum, I would like to welcome you!

With which U.S based window company are you affiliated with?


BTW - I never said that, "only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows". It has nothing to do with tilt and turn, it has to do with the ENTIRE European engineered window choice and design. They are a decade ahead of any American designed window design, that is a fact. They are the Prius of electric cars and US companies are the Chevy Volt of electric cars (overpriced with problems).
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10 Mar 2012 04:17 PM
Posted By Lbear on 10 Mar 2012 03:42 PM

BTW - I never said that, "only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows". It has nothing to do with tilt and turn, it has to do with the ENTIRE European engineered window choice and design. They are a decade ahead of any American designed window design, that is a fact. They are the Prius of electric cars and US companies are the Chevy Volt of electric cars (overpriced with problems).
So Europe is the Prius of electric cars?  Gosh, I always thought the Japan was the source of Prius cars. 

Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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10 Mar 2012 04:29 PM
I am not on the board promoting any single window. I am heavily involved in the window industry and have designed composite and fiberglass casement/awning/picture window systems that are currently on the market or will soon be on the market. I have experience on the extrusion side, manufacturing, installation, and sales. We can talk rainscreen principles, hardware design, DP ratings, solar tuning, installation methods, etc... all day, I just get annoyed when people paint this false image that ALL American products are 20 years behind Europe.
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10 Mar 2012 04:38 PM
Posted By Lee Dodge on 10 Mar 2012 04:17 PM
Posted By Lbear on 10 Mar 2012 03:42 PM

BTW - I never said that, "only tilt and turn windows are high quality windows". It has nothing to do with tilt and turn, it has to do with the ENTIRE European engineered window choice and design. They are a decade ahead of any American designed window design, that is a fact. They are the Prius of electric cars and US companies are the Chevy Volt of electric cars (overpriced with problems).
So Europe is the Prius of electric cars?  Gosh, I always thought the Japan was the source of Prius cars. 


My analogy was apparently lost. I was comparing the electric car design, one which is US (Volt) and the other which is Prius (Japanese) BUT in regards to windows, the US design (Pella, Marvin, etc) are like the Volt and the European Design windows are like the Prius. In other words, the US technology in regards to energy windows is lacking. The Volt is poor, unreliable & expensive engineering and the Prius is light-years ahead of it. Pella is not state of the art, they are decent but nowhere near where Europeans are in regards to energy windows.

If you research, you will see that the U.S. is starting to lack in the global market in terms of energy conservation. We are ruled by the oil companies who are in bed with the politicians. In Europe where fossil fuel is expensive and green energy builds are not optional but necessary, the engineers come up with designs that work to save energy.
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10 Mar 2012 04:43 PM
Posted By EnerLux on 10 Mar 2012 04:29 PM
I am not on the board promoting any single window. I am heavily involved in the window industry and have designed composite and fiberglass casement/awning/picture window systems that are currently on the market or will soon be on the market. I have experience on the extrusion side, manufacturing, installation, and sales. We can talk rainscreen principles, hardware design, DP ratings, solar tuning, installation methods, etc... all day, I just get annoyed when people paint this false image that ALL American products are 20 years behind Europe.

As I figured, you are involved in the U.S. window companies. I just wanted to get "full disclosure". No personal attack against you, I just knew that you had a dog in this fight, financially. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, I don't gain to profit and I don't work for any window manufacturer. I just know talking with engineers and window companies on what works and what doesn't.

Now, if you can show me an American engineered window that has the same great engineering that European windows have, I will listen and spend my money with U.S. companies. But I will not an inferior product just because it has a "Made in USA" stamp on it. I did that years ago with American cars and learned my lesson. Never again.

You mentioned that these new window designs will soon be on the market. What is the company name and what kind of design are we talking about?

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10 Mar 2012 08:42 PM
I have an NDA with another company for the fiberglass window. The composite window will be manufactured by my company starting in July. The extrusion tooling is currently being cut.

My company previously manufactured a fiberglass casement window that had air infiltration rates of 0.005 cfm, DP-100 rating, and could achieve full-frame U values of 0.16 with a 1 3/8" argon filled triple pane using the Cardinal XL edge spacer. The overall frame height of the entire window was 2 7/8", far lower than the bulky European tilt & turn and casement systems. There is a lot more that goes into a window system than just U value and DP. You have aesthetic, marketing, pricing, performance, STC, education etc... considerations.

Besides that anyone in America could manufacture the Deceuninck, Veka or Rehau tilt and turn systems, but they don't because there is no market demand for it. American's like thin site lines.

Show me a window from Europe that you will import, that will outperform, be more durable, have thin site lines, and will be similarly priced to the above fiberglass window.
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11 Mar 2012 12:44 AM
Posted By EnerLux on 10 Mar 2012 08:42 PM
I have an NDA with another company for the fiberglass window. The composite window will be manufactured by my company starting in July. The extrusion tooling is currently being cut.

My company previously manufactured a fiberglass casement window that had air infiltration rates of 0.005 cfm, DP-110 ratings, and could achieve full-frame U values of 0.16 with a 1 3/8" argon filled triple pane using the Cardinal XL edge spacer. The overall frame height of the entire window was 2 7/8", far lower than the bulky European tilt & turn and casement systems. There is a lot more that goes into a window system than just U value and DP. You have aesthetic, marketing, pricing, performance, STC, education etc... considerations.

Besides that anyone in America could manufacture the Deceuninck, Veka or Rehau tilt and turn systems, but they don't because there is no market demand for it. American's like thin site lines.

Show me a window from Europe that you will import, that will outperform, be more durable, have thin site lines, and will be similarly priced to the above fiberglass window.

I would be interested to know more and see it when it goes into production. Please post a website link or contact information when it does.


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12 Mar 2012 01:24 AM
The Pella triple pane window is not a sealed window. The interior glass panel is removable.
Maybe the one you are thinking about is built that way, LBear, but my Pella windows are true triple pane. I just put them in a couple weeks ago, but your repeated assertions caused me to look at them extra closely to see if I got the wrong thing. Nope they are just as ordered. Triple pane.

I wanted to put the finest windows in this home and it came down to Marvin and Pella, all things considered. The Marvin package ran 20% more - for no good reason, since both windows appeared to be identical in function and quality, therefore Pella won.
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12 Mar 2012 08:39 AM
ICF, If you are talking about the designer series Pella's they are not at "true" sealed triple pane window. The interior pane opens so you can place blinds and grill within it. It does have as seal and does provide some thermal value but not the same as a true triple where all glass units are sealed.
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12 Mar 2012 09:01 AM
What are you basing these assertions on?
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12 Mar 2012 09:14 AM
ICF, I just visited the Pella store and priced the designer series windows out. I have read about the Marvin Tri pane windows and am in the process of also pricing them out.(True sealed triple pane window) I would assume that your Pella's are the designer series because they are triple pane. FYI, I do like them and they appear to be much more affordable then any of the foreign window manufacturers. They also have that traditional window look that I am after.
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12 Mar 2012 09:25 AM
They also have that traditional window look that I am after.
What look is that? Are you referring to the "wood" construction?
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12 Mar 2012 11:56 AM
The term "'true' triple pane window" is a misleading and nondesciptive term invented by somebody on this forum for its snob appeal. Let us bury that term, never to be used again, and discuss the window in question, the Pella Designer series, in more precise terms, specifically its insulated glazing unit (IGU) and the total number of panes of glass. For my circa 2010 Pella Designer series windows installed almost exactly two years ago, the IGU consists of two panes of glass, and a third, independently sealed pane of glass toward the interior of the house. The spacing between the second and third panes of glass (counting from outside to inside) is about 28 mm (1.12"), and the part of the window holding that third pane can be tilted in toward the house interior allowing for blinds or shades to be inserted between thosse two panes.

Therefore, the question for you, ICFHybrid, is whether your 2012 version of these Pella Designer series windows are similar to mine as described above, or whether the design has changed in such a way that they now use an IGU that has three glazings in a single, sealed unit. And while you are at it, what is the window style (double-hung, casement, etc.), gas fill (air or argon), the U-value, SHGC, and ER value? My circa 2010 Pella Designer are high altitude (so air filled) and the high SHGC windows are U-value = 0.31, SHGC = 0.49, VT = 0.52%, and ER ~ 28 (estimated), while the low SHGC are U = 0.29, SHGC - 0.28, VT = 0.48%, and ER ~ 17 (estimated). The ER really takes a hit for the low solar gain windows!

On a different note, I really like the Canadian's Energy Rating (ER) factor for those that live in a heating dominated climate. Quoting from the Canadian Natural Resources website http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/windows-doors/8464 "The Energy Rating (ER) value is calculated using a formula that balances a product's U-value with its potential solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC) and its airtightness. The higher the number, the more energy efficient the product. The ER scale was recently modified so that all products now have a rating of between 0 and about 50. (Under the previous rating scale, it was possible for a product to have a negative ER number.) The higher the ER number, the better the product's thermal performance."

Since this ER factor combines both U-value and SHGC, it could be used by those people confused about how to balance these two terms to arrive at the most efficient window in cold climates. Of course, it would be far better to use a model like RESFEN or BEopt to perform calculations for a particular location and climate including solar insolation, but this effort is beyond what some people are willing or capable of doing.
Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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12 Mar 2012 12:51 PM
ICF, I was referring to the frame on the outside and the wood trim on the inside. Some of the fiberglass windows look suitable for more contemporary houses. My house is going to be of an arts and crafts design.
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12 Mar 2012 12:53 PM
Lee, Are you happy with the quality of your Pella windows? I have heard from several people that they were not totally happy with the window quality. I don't know if they are referring to problems with older models from years past.
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12 Mar 2012 01:56 PM
Posted By peteinny on 12 Mar 2012 12:53 PM
Lee, Are you happy with the quality of your Pella windows? I have heard from several people that they were not totally happy with the window quality. I don't know if they are referring to problems with older models from years past.
peteinny-

I also have an arts and crafts house, as you can tell if you checked out the website. The windows in the other houses in this subdivision of arts and crafts homes are all white vinyl, and I like the looks of my Pella wood windows better than what I see in the other homes. A downside of the wood windows is that I paid extra for the Pella Designer windows, and then I paid more to get them stained during the construction process, although they got them to match the oak hardwood floors pretty well. You can sort of see what they look like at http://www.residentialenergylaborat...on_am.html in the Windows and Shades section.

I purchased them not so much based on the arts and crafts design, but rather because I was looking for high solar gain windows that would also meet the U-value requirement of 0.35 at the time.  I would list the selection criteria that I used as follows:
1.  High SHGC for all but north side.
2.  Builder was not comfortable with fiberglass windows due to lack of experience by installers with fiberglass in this small mountain town.
3.  I was guessing that wood would have less problems with thermal expansion than vinyl, but with wood cladding...?
4.  I was able to get a quotation from Pella, while I was not able to get much of a response from some other window companies concerning their high SHGC products when I told them they also needed to meet the U<0.35 spec.
5.  Quote from Serious Windows for their high SHGC windows (and low SHGC) was much higher than the Pella windows, and the RESFEN predicted performance for this sunny climate was worse.  The specs for both these brands have changed since 2010.  
6.  Delivery from some other suppliers was too slow for the construction schedule.    
7.  I liked the looks of wood better than vinyl or fiberglass, especially for the arts and crafts house. 

The Pella Designer windows have performed well from a thermal standpoint, being a part of the overall package that includes a good insulation package and some passive solar heating, with the actual house energy performance coming out close to the predicted performance.  This includes about 35% of the total space heating from passive solar.  I do not have a way to measure the window performance separately from the whole house. 

On one of the windows, the tilt out feature for the inner single pane did not work correctly due to a hinge problem, and the service from the local Pella rep was slow, but he finally fixed it.  (I didn't need that feature since I don't use blinds there, but I wanted it to work correctly since they were new.)  The windows were delivered with the wrong color hardware (white instead of brown) and the local Pella rep was very slow in getting the hardware replaced.  The top and bottom halves of the double-hung windows can be tilted into the house for cleaning, but for a one-story house, I find it easier to clean them from the outside than to try to tilt them inward, which is a bit awkward.  Otherwise, the performance of the windows has been fine.  I do need operable windows for my cooling strategy that includes only "natural" air conditioning, and these windows open and close well.  Some caution has to be used in locking the windows to make sure that the two window halves do not push apart along the seal for these double-hung windows.  Wood windows will require more maintenace than vinyl or fiberglass to maintain their finish, a disadvantage.     
Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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12 Mar 2012 10:04 PM
I paid extra for the Pella Designer windows, and then I paid more to get them stained during the construction process
I think you made the best choice in terms of an integrated look for the interior finish and trim of your home. I see lots of trim packages where little thought is given to matching components well.  That's an argument for not buying the window company jamb extensions and letting your finish carpenter put everything together.
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12 Mar 2012 10:18 PM
Therefore, the question for you, ICFHybrid, is whether your 2012 version of these Pella Designer series windows are similar to mine as described above, or whether the design has changed in such a way that they now use an IGU that has three glazings in a single, sealed unit.
The Pella Designer Series windows, delivered in Dec, 2011 and Jan, 2012 do, in fact, have three panes of glass with argon fill in a single sealed unit. Those particular windows with that glazing are pictures because they are all high up in clerestory locations and aren't accessible for opening. I will go back and look at the ratings, but as I recall, I had to let some of the rating values slip a bit in order to make sure the windows matched well with the others in terms of VT and appearance.
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12 Mar 2012 11:32 PM
Lee, there is a large difference between triple pane performance. Please see http://www.cardinalcorp.com/technology/reference/loe-performance-stats/

For North American testing purposes, Argon gas performs optimally with a 1/2" air space. Using a 1 3/8" IG will provide you two 1/2" air spaces assuming the glass is standard double strength 3mm (1/8") glass. Many large manufactures such as Pella and Marvin have older window systems that do not accommodate a 1 3/8" IG. They may advertise triple pane windows but their U value is not nearly as good as a modern window with a 1 3/8" IG because they are creating a triple pane out of a 1" IG. I use the term true triple pane regularly because of this. The large manufacturers are slow to switch over because they have a significant amount of money and capital invested in equipment, testing, inventory etc...
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13 Mar 2012 01:45 AM
The large manufacturers are slow to switch over because they have a significant amount of money and capital invested in equipment, testing, inventory etc...
Pella is a $1.6 billion company that has been around for nearly a hundred years. The notion that they are slow to respond to changes in the market is not well supported. The big players in the window industry buy and sell other mfrs regularly. The real reason is that consumers primarily demand attractive windows over windows that might be of more interest to users of GBT. Adding a bunch of insulation and clunky glazing competes with the other reasons people buy windows. To look at and through.
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13 Mar 2012 03:18 AM
The age of a company and it's net worth does not give it infallibility in its designs and energy design/numbers. Actually, when a company gets too large, customer service can suffer and it sometimes becomes too big for its own good. The bigger a company gets and the more overhead it incurs. They are now "standard" equipment windows for mega-tract homes & they sell them at Lowe's. Maybe it's more about quantity than quality.

Pella Window Issues


Pella Window Problems


Once again, Pella is not horrendous by any means but there are better windows out there and sometimes the smaller companies provide better energy numbers and overall better made windows and better service. The Pella triple-pane window design is not up to par with the other triple pane window designs out there. As mentioned, that is why a Pella triple pane performs just the same as a standard dual pane window, sometimes worse. Pella was not cutting edge when it came to energy design. They were always more focused on looks and energy savings was not top priority. They have since started to focus more on energy but windows with .30 U-Value ratings are not top of the line.

They can make a decent window but they are by no means the best choice out there.
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13 Mar 2012 09:00 AM
I think you need to realize that not everyone evaluates products through the same eyes that Lbear does. One of the reasons Pella has been successful is that they are not going after the niche that Serious Windows, for example, has.
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13 Mar 2012 02:28 PM

EnerLux said:  "Lee, there is a large difference between triple pane performance. Please see http://www.cardinalcorp.com/technology/reference/loe-performance-stats/ " 

Are you trying to communicate that there are large differences between single, double, and triple pane windows, or triple pane windows with different spacings or with different gas fills which are all shown in your link?  I can only guess based on the context of previous comments in this thread that you are tryiing to communicate that an IGU with three glazings performs better than an IGU with two glazings combined with another separate single glazing?  When you say "...there is a large difference between triple pane performance" please complete the sentence to say, "...there is a large difference between triple pane performance and double pane performance" or whatever you are tyring to get at.  In my posting of 10 Mar 2012 11:41 AM, I discussed the increase in U-value of an IGU with two glazings combined with a separate single glazing compared to an IGU with three glazings, so I assume that you would not be trying to communiate that which I already understand and had already discussed in this same thread. 

EnerLux said: "For North American testing purposes, Argon gas performs optimally with a 1/2" air space. Using a 1 3/8" IG will provide you two 1/2" air spaces assuming the glass is standard double strength 3mm (1/8") glass. Many large manufactures such as Pella and Marvin have older window systems that do not accommodate a 1 3/8" IG. They may advertise triple pane windows but their U value is not nearly as good as a modern window with a 1 3/8" IG because they are creating a triple pane out of a 1" IG. I use the term true triple pane regularly because of this."

So for you the term "'true' triple pane" only applies to windows that use an IGU with three glazings with argon fills that measure 1 3/8" thick, and to nothing else?  I think that your shorthand nomenclature just encourages the failure to communicate, and must be based on trying to elevate your product as the only "true" one.      

Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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13 Mar 2012 02:43 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 12 Mar 2012 10:18 PM
Therefore, the question for you, ICFHybrid, is whether your 2012 version of these Pella Designer series windows are similar to mine as described above, or whether the design has changed in such a way that they now use an IGU that has three glazings in a single, sealed unit.
The Pella Designer Series windows, delivered in Dec, 2011 and Jan, 2012 do, in fact, have three panes of glass with argon fill in a single sealed unit. Those particular windows with that glazing are pictures because they are all high up in clerestory locations and aren't accessible for opening. I will go back and look at the ratings, but as I recall, I had to let some of the rating values slip a bit in order to make sure the windows matched well with the others in terms of VT and appearance.
Thanks for the clarification.  The idea of using clerestory windows with proper shading sounds like a potentially excellent way to include passive solar heating without excessive glare (which may or may not be your intention).  You might be familiar with the Equinox house (http://newellinstruments.com/equinox) which uses clerestory windows, and which is now meeting net-zero energy after having installed an air source heat pump following their first winter when they were using electrical resistance heating.  (They have not updated the energy use on their website, but I have had private communication with them.) 

Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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13 Mar 2012 05:53 PM

When the Pella triple pane windows get a best U-Value of 0.28 and the other triple pane windows get as low as 0.10 - what is left to say?

There is something going on in the design of the Pella triple panes that they are not achieving the same energy values of other triple panes. I believe it is due to design, glass thickness, sealing properties, etc.


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13 Mar 2012 06:37 PM
Lee, the link to the Cardinal glass website shows the difference in performance between a triple pane with a a 1" IG versus a triple pane with a 1 3/8" IG. A 1 3/8" triple pane IG provides "true" triple pane performance just like a 3/4" double pane IG provides "true" double pane performance.
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13 Mar 2012 07:37 PM
Posted By EnerLux on 13 Mar 2012 06:37 PM
Lee, the link to the Cardinal glass website shows the difference in performance between a triple pane with a a 1" IG versus a triple pane with a 1 3/8" IG. A 1 3/8" triple pane IG provides "true" triple pane performance...


...unless you are restricted to high-altitude, air-filled windows (which I am) in which case the optimum gap between glazings is about 16 mm rather than 12.7 mm for Cardinal Glass LoE-179 Triple Pane (surfaces #2 and #5) windows (http://www.cardinalcorp.com/wp-cont...ochure.pdf).  (I assume that the newer Loe-180 would perform similarly.)  Then you have to come up with a new definition for "'true' triple pane windows" with "'true' triple pane performance."  I would suggest leaving the word "true" out and just define the window layout and performance specs more precisely.  Let the buyer determine what is truth and beauty in his/her windows.
Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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13 Mar 2012 07:59 PM
Posted By Lbear on 13 Mar 2012 05:53 PM

When the Pella triple pane windows get a best U-Value of 0.28 and the other triple pane windows get as low as 0.10 - what is left to say?


I suggest you buy whatever windows meet your criteria, and let others do the same, since others may have more complex and comprehensive criteria that they use to evaluate windows.
Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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16 Mar 2012 05:54 PM
I spoke to an engineer who designs many award winning passive homes and gave him my specifications. He stated that going with a super high SHGC on the southern windows will definitely overheat the home. I will go with a 0.49 SHGC on the southern exposure vs. the 0.62 option, as I do NOT want to overheat the home.


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17 Mar 2012 10:22 PM
Full Disclosure- my company distributes SeriousWindows products in eastern Canada.
===

In defence of SeriousWindows, and their use of suspended coated film and Heat Mirror films. Like any product their are good and bad manufacturers, saying that heat mirror is bad because of one company's problems, is like saying that all double windows are bad, because the seals sometimes fail.
The test of any glass or window manufacturer is the examination of product installed 15 or 20 years ago.

SeriousWindows (formerly Alpen) has a 30 year history of producing in their own factories glass with suspended coated films and Heat mirror.
Here is a sample of major projects that date back to 1981, and all in excellent condition.

HOLY CROSS ENERGY, Glenwood Springs, Colorado ,1981
NEW YORK HISTORICAL SOCIETY New York, NY, 1982
BOEING MUSEUM OF FLIGHT, 1984.
HOTEL TROPICANNA II – LAS VEGAS 1985
COLORADO STATE SERVICES BUILDING, Grand Junction, CO (1982)
SMITHSONIAN NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY Washington, DC, 1991
SMITHSONIAN FREER GALLERY, Washington, DC, 1992
NEWARK AIRPORT (Monorail Terminals) 1992
NATIONAL AUDUBON HEADQUARTERS, New York, NY 1995
SAN JOSE CONVENTION CENTER – California, 1995
VIRGINIA AIR & SPACE MUSEUM, Hampton, VA 1997
BOULDER, COLORADO LIBRARY, 1998
GUGGENHEIM-MANHEIM – LAS VEGAS, 2001
SMITHSONIAN NATIONAL MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY Washington, DC 2002
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25 Mar 2012 10:02 AM
I believe that many forums have too much opinion based information on them. If you want to see the differences between certain window companies all you need to do is go to the National Fenestration Rating Councils website and see first hand. http://www.nfrc.org/ Intus and Serious blow away Pella when you look at there numbers. The biggest advantage to using a window not sold at your LUMBER-MARTS is that you have much better seals. This is the most important part of any window or door. That is where you really see a difference. Unfortunately most American window companies have not put as much engineering into the seals. Thus the lower price. Attention to detail does cost you. The American made window companys have not had to focus on performance like they are now. It has always been the name that would sell in the past. They are going to need to make major changes soon as the marketplace becomes more educated on the value of performance. Blower door test I believe will be mandatory before you close on a home in the future. This will be a game changer for all window and door companies. Looks alone are not enough for the marketplace anymore.
Brian Shier<br>Green Structure Supply LLC


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