foam board insulation & brick veneer
Last Post 25 Feb 2010 03:38 PM by toddm. 8 Replies.
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JereUser is Offline
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21 Feb 2010 09:09 AM
How thick of foam board can you have on the exterior of the house when you plan on having all brick and still be able to anchor the angle iron to support the brick over window and door openings? Would the angle iron go on the outside of the foam (I wouldn't think so)?   Or would you anchor it to the framing cutting away the foam... this would require a larger piece of angle iron to accommodate the foam thickness.

Also, would the windows have to be installed so the nailing flanges are on the exterior face of the foam so the brick finishes out around the windows properly?  If the windows are installed with the nailing flange on the framing then foam board, is there a good way to do the brick around the windows or would you have a exterior trim piece of some sort?
I built my home with the help of Pierson-Gibbs Homes, "The Hands on House". They build the shell, you finish it.

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wesUser is Offline
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21 Feb 2010 05:32 PM
Jere, I'm sorry that this reply will not answer your question.
However, the idea of adding foam insulation outside a framed wall on new construction in lieu of using SIPS/ICF construction is, at best, doubtful, and, more than likely, self defeating. It cannot be less expensive nor labor saving by the time you solve all the problems that are certain to arise. The solution to problem 1 begets problem 2. The solution to problem 2 begets problem 3, and so on. And the problems will survive the actual build. How can you be assured that the solutions will remain stable through various heating/cooling seasons, seismic tremors, and speeding semis on nearby streets. (Brick is exceptionally succeptable to vibration). Keep it simple. SIPS/ICFs can provide the insulation values you seek, and most of the 'bugs' have already been worked out.
Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected]
JereUser is Offline
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22 Feb 2010 05:19 PM
I found out that the angle iron that supports the brick over window and door openings actually goes past or is wider than the opening and is supported by the brick beneath it.  The angle iron is not required it to be anchored to the framing of the house, so it can go on the outside of the foam board.  The only area it may have to be anchored to the framing is for the overhead garage doors... if that area is brick.  So as far as the thickness of rigid foam goes, you could go any thickness. The windows would probably finish out better, with brick, if they are installed on the outer face of the foam.
I built my home with the help of Pierson-Gibbs Homes, "The Hands on House". They build the shell, you finish it.

www.p-ghomes.com
aardvarcusUser is Offline
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22 Feb 2010 08:42 PM
You are right about the angle iron for over the windows and doors. For anchoring the angle Iron over the garage door, just remove a small square of the foam in the middle and shim out with some plywood flush with the foam, and then you could firmly attach the angle iron to that. I think you are going to end up having to put trim on the top and sides to cover the foam. On the bottom, you can just turn the bricks "longways" and cut them at an angle to make a little ledge to hide the foam and allow water to drain off. See attached picture for a better description. Since you are putting up something as durable as brick, you might look into PVC trim that should last quite a while.

The SipperUser is Offline
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22 Feb 2010 09:52 PM
Very well put, Wes, but It appears that you're being ignored. However, its my understanding that there are about 60,000 visits to this site each month, so maybe those who're reading this thread, and are in the preliminary stages of planning their projects, will take heed.
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JereUser is Offline
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23 Feb 2010 10:29 AM
Wes & The Sipper,

I appreciate your replies in this thread, but the topic was regarding angle iron to support brick over window and door openings and I was wondering if it makes a difference where the angle iron is placed, and the foam thickness. When I originally started this thread I was under the assumption that the angle iron had to be anchored to the structure of the house (this would also apply to ICF or sips when you have brick) which would require either anchoring through the foam board with longer lag screws or using an angle iron with a wider bottom leg. I found out that this is not the case, that the angle iron does not have to be anchored to the structure (whether ICF, sips, stick frame) because the angle iron goes past the width of the opening on both sides and is supported by the brick beneath it. The only time the angle iron may have to be anchored to the structure of the house is above overhead garage door openings, or possibly really wide windows.

What is the suggested method to anchor angle iron to ICF and sips construction above overhead garage doors or really wide windows?
I built my home with the help of Pierson-Gibbs Homes, "The Hands on House". They build the shell, you finish it.

www.p-ghomes.com
psammyUser is Offline
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23 Feb 2010 02:12 PM
Jere.....lintels in masonry veneers are generally installed 'loose' and not anchored to the wall system. I don't think a SIP structure would be any different than any wood-framed structure. ICF, in almost all cases would be typical as well. The veneer needs to be allowed to move independent of the structure behind (especially wood). Longer lintel spans require bigger lintels......a deeper angle, a channel, or W beam. It just depends on the span and the load with limiting deflection being the key. Consult your friendly structural engineer for anything out of the ordinary or for his typical loose lintel schedule.

psammy
AltonUser is Offline
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23 Feb 2010 03:13 PM
In my area it is a normal practice to bolt brick lintels to the header over garage doors.
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toddmUser is Offline
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25 Feb 2010 03:38 PM
You will probably need a one-inch air space between the brick and the foam and careful attention to vapor barriers. http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0104-solar-driven-moisture-in-brick-veneer

While lintels aren't tied to stud framing, the brick usually is. Google "brick ties"

As Psammy says, brick veneer is brick veneer no matter what wall system you use.
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