Has anyone tried a wood basement?  By using pressure treated ground contact, foundation grade 2x8s 12" OC and 3/4" similarly rated plywood with stud cavities filled with Roxul and inner sheathing with "Thermoply"  one can make an r21 basement wall for material cost  of about $3.50/sq ft., the material cost  of an 8" plain (unreinforced) concrete poured wall if concrete is $141/yd.  

What's the point? Concrete is a superior material for foundations and runs on the order of half that cost.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 03 Oct 2012 08:18 PM
What's the point? Concrete is a superior material for foundations and runs on the order of half that cost.

I agree and so would 95% of local codes & builders. Treated wood does not equal rot free. Treated wood will start to rot and fall apart if subjected to moisture, albeit at a much slower rate than untreated wood.

Talk to any experienced building inspector and if they had any experience with below grade wood, they will reiterate what this inspector said:

"I've inspected about 100 houses with wood foundations. All except one had significant problems. Collapse or extensive moisture intrusion are the most common problems I see. The one that had no issues was only a year old."

Once the cost of insulating material for a concrete basement is added any cost advantage is clearly gone. Concrete basements if poorly waterproofed are just as wet as a poorly water proofed wood foundation. Cutting corners by using the wrong materials is certainly going to lead to problems in anything. Concrete ALWAYS cracks, making durable waterproofing difficult and expensive, without cracks making durable waterproofing is far simpler with wood. Proper attention to drainage and durable waterproofing are the only ways to avoid water issues with either material. Attention to drainage includes proper materials for back fill, this detail is responsible for most wet basements, Ive seen it in three houses I've owned & all had poured concrete basements. The first wood basements in the US were constructed in 1966 they are still being monitored and have had no issues. There are several companies offering "panelised" wood foundations that offer a 75 year transferable warranty. Over 500,000 US houses have wood foundations. Based on accelerated tests design life of a wood foundation exceeds 150 years. Is there any other way to get an r32 basement for less than $5/ wall sq ft of material cost?

Concrete basements if poorly waterproofed are just as wet as a poorly water proofed wood foundation

Completely spurious arguments. Concrete and masonry is the foundation material of choice for many reasons.

"What's the point? Concrete is a superior material for foundations and runs on the order of half that cost."

Simply FALSE!

Concrete is INFERIOR in ability to maintain a durable waterproofing system due to INEVITABLE cracking.
Concrete's durability is more degraded should settling or seismic activity occur and because it is much heavier settling is more likely.
Costs to repair concrete are substantially greater.
Concrete is inferior in embodied energy
Concrete is inferior in cost whenever an insulated foundation is needed.

What does concrete have going for it?
A loyal following simultaneously unwilling to see it's disadvantages and unwilling to accept a proven " better way".

My original question is unanswered!

I have seen a few in the Colorado mountains, under Log Cabins, built in the late 1990's. They have had absolutely no issues.

Concrete is INFERIOR in ability to maintain a durable waterproofing system due to INEVITABLE cracking.

Most of the proven waterproofing methods maintain integrity under normal cracking.

Concrete's durability is more degraded should settling or seismic activity occur

Concrete has the ultimate durability as far as foundation materials go.

Costs to repair concrete are substantially greater.

Properly constructed concrete foundations don't need repair.

Concrete is inferior in embodied energy

Are you the same poster who was trying to claim that perlite has low embodied energy?

Concrete is inferior in cost whenever an insulated foundation is needed.

No. My ICF foundations were quite compatible with any other reasonable method. Wood was not a reasonable method.

A loyal following

If by "loyal following" you mean the entire universe of builders the world over, then, sure.

Is this part of some sort of a misinformed agenda to promote "natural" materials?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 04 Oct 2012 12:50 PM

Is this part of some sort of a misinformed agenda to promote "natural" materials?

I believe the OP was NOT looking for an answer but a platform to promote wood foundations. His mind is apparently made up due to his strong responses in favor of wood foundations and basements. Debating him is futile, just from reading his responses it is apparent that he favors wood and does not like concrete foundations and he was hoping to get an audience to hear him out.

He needs to write a dissertation on why all the architects and engineers need to stop using concrete and steel in foundations, bridges, skyscrapers, high-rise buildings, highways & highway overpasses, parking garages, etc., and start using wood because it is "superior" to concrete and steel. Mind you that you will have to show your masters degree or PhD accreditation. Once it is written, the scientific community will read your study and if what you say is backed by scientific research & facts, then you will revolutionize the way we build structures and concrete will go the way of the dinosaurs.

Lbear,
You are wrong!, I was looking for an answer! I've recently" discovered" wood as a foundation material and have done a bit of research which is "fresh" in my mind. I was, quite frankly, quite surprised at the hostility and prejudice against a successful proven concept and choice of materials. Presenting an apology for wood as a material foundation was easy because of my fresh knowledge. I have no prejudice either way! I deal in facts and data and hopefully avoid unsupported claims and statements like" Wood was not a reasonable method. " I'm hear to learn, and share knowledge not debate or sell anything.

I'll ask the same question I asked last time we had this discussion - what good is a basement wall warranty? Will they pay for the excavation? For jacking the house up? Worst comes to worst & they send the owner a check for either the original cost, or a fraction thereof & say have a nice day, leaving them with a bill for tens of thousands of dollars to jack up the house, replace the foundation and re-landscape. Just plain dumb! The only one who wins is the spec builder who builds, sells & runs away.

ICFHybrid,
"Is this part of some sort of a misinformed agenda to promote "natural" materials?

NO! but after all this forum is named "Green Building Talk" so a discussion of "greener" alternatives is appropriate.

Both perlite as an insulation and wood as a foundation material are "greener" than many more conventional alternatives and should be intelligently evaluated by any one trying to "build green". Interestingly they both involve no cost penalty and only ignorance can account for their lack of widespread use.

Posted By Liebler on 04 Oct 2012 02:38 PM
Lbear,
You are wrong!, I was looking for an answer! I've recently" discovered" wood as a foundation material and have done a bit of research which is "fresh" in my mind. I was, quite frankly, quite surprised at the hostility and prejudice against a successful proven concept and choice of materials. Presenting an apology for wood as a material foundation was easy because of my fresh knowledge. I have no prejudice either way! I deal in facts and data and hopefully avoid unsupported claims and statements like" Wood was not a reasonable method. " I'm hear to learn, and share knowledge not debate or sell anything.

The problem may be in your approach in how you ask the question and how you respond to the answers. Being that this is a "green" building forum, you will get the entire gamut of what being green means. From one person, simply wanting to build with energy conservation in mind to another person who believes people shouldn't build modern home but live in caves. The code word that usually does it for me is "embodied energy". As one "environmentalist" put it, forget the embodied energy of concrete or steel, what about kids? The embodied energy of that single human being and their lifelong carbon footprint will be 1,000,000 times more than any house you build.

Getting back to the topic at hand, wood has its place but when it comes to foundations and basements, concrete is the best, that is a scientific fact. Like I said, if you can change the mindset of the engineering and building industry by writing a scientific journal to prove them wrong, and to prove that wood can perform better, then my hats off to you. I am not being rude, just honest.

Can a wood foundation be done? Sure, in some climates but it has its pitfalls and drawbacks and 98% of builders, engineers, local codes, and contractors will simply not go down that path because of the issues wood in basements and foundations will bring forth. I can't find a treated wood fence that will not split, warp, twist, dance, dry rot and eventually fall apart within 10-15 years out here in Arizona. We build fences out of masonry blocks and we build foundations out of concrete. That is what works and that is what lasts.

Lbear,
I'm sorry I've offended your religious beliefs. But I would like the source for one of your many unsupported statements which 'pinned' my BS meter. Where did you get this? "98% of builders, engineers, local codes, and contractors will simply not go down that path because of the issues wood in basements and foundations will bring forth.

Both perlite as an insulation and wood as a foundation material are "greener"

That has, by no means, been established, certainly not by your questionable statements. One of the things concrete has going for it is it's durability. Many replacement and maintenance cycles of wood can pass for one lifetime of concrete.

It is possible that living in a polymer "tent" could be greener than any other residence, but it does not yield a reasonable lifestyle.

only ignorance can account for their lack of widespread use.

I'm afraid that is not true at all. Concrete is a preferred building material by people who have the entire length and breadth of human existence and knowledge to draw on.

I have seen only one wood basement and that was in 1970's while it was being built.  Wood basements did not catch on in the Southeast.

Posted By Liebler on 04 Oct 2012 07:06 PM
Lbear,
I'm sorry I've offended your religious beliefs. But I would like the source for one of your many unsupported statements which 'pinned' my BS meter. Where did you get this? "98% of builders, engineers, local codes, and contractors will simply not go down that path because of the issues wood in basements and foundations will bring forth.

Once again you are mistaken, I never espoused my religious beliefs, nor did you offend my religious beliefs.

If you are so "green" focused. I am surprised you would even use treated wood. Do a search on how the chemicals leach off of treated wood into the soil and groundwater supply. You can't burn treated wood because it is so toxic, what do you think happens to treated wood in the ground? The chemicals make their way into the food and water supplies, rivers, lakes, etc. Building basements out of treated wood is not better for the environment.

Question:
Please give me the pressure numbers for a basement with back-fill utilizing concrete and then utilizing wood. Add to that equation moisture saturated soil and soils going through freezing, thawing, expansion rates. Let me know what wood is capable of and then what a concrete wall is capable of.

Talk with engineers, architects and builders. Ask them what works and what doesn't work in regards to basements.

Go on the home inspection forums and read what building inspectors post. In the Carolina's the life expectancy of treated wood in direct ground contact would be about 20 years. The handful of homes that have a wood foundation have seen failures in 20 years or less and the curtain wall between the piers must be replaced.

I don't deny that wood basements are out there and some may have no problems with them. If you are arguing about which is "greener", wood vs concrete, the argument is over and solved because if you want to be greener, don't build anything. Stay where you are at now or buy an existing home. The embodied energy to build a new home vs. buying an already existing home is not even up to debate.

I did one wood foundation about 18 years ago but it was on sand that drained so well that it was never moist. I don't think that I would do one again as I was not entirely comfortable with it.

Lbear,
FACT! I got "interested" in wood as a basement material while talking to the local building official about my net zero project he asked. " Why aren't you using a wood basement?"

So again I ask. Where did you get this? "98% of builders, engineers, local codes, and contractors will simply not go down that path because of the issues wood in basements and foundations will bring forth.

My research continues & I just came upon this:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_pros_and_cons_of_a_poured_concrete_basement_versus_a_treated_wood_basement

And this:
"Cement is the principal ingredient in concrete. Producing one ton of cement results in the emission of approximately one ton of CO2, created by fuel combustion and the calcination of raw materials. Cement manufacturing is a source of greenhouse gas emissions, accounting for approximately 7% to 8% of CO2 globally.  "

I built eight homes with wood foundations in Colorado i the 1980s.  All are still standing with no known problems.
Twice in the last 3 years I have been contacted by home inspectors when these homes resold and accompanied the
inspectors on the inpections which included probe holes (at my recommendation) to determine if there was moisture 
problems.  The only damage was fixing drywall from the probe holes.  All were built with 100% finished walkout or daylight 
basements and have provided dry, warm and affordable space for 30 years.

 Recently completed a detached home office/guest house in someones backyard. 
At under 500 sq ft, we built it so it could be easily moved in the future because it is in a neighborhood
where the original small house will likely be bulldozed and a large home will be built at some point.
We used a wood framed crawl space and gravel footers. 
First day of construction we excavated, did footers, set crawl walls and were setting floor joists.
Try that with concrete!