Crawl-space insulation question...
Last Post 01 Mar 2013 09:29 PM by FBBP. 5 Replies.
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robert.thompsonUser is Offline
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10 Feb 2013 12:51 PM
Hello:
The point of the following question is to determine the most cost-effective way, both in materials and heating costs, to keep the floor of my house warm.
My 1200 sf single story house foundation will be built on ARXX Prime ICF's (R-22) directly on bedrock and will vary from 2' to 6' in height - average about 4'.
The floor of the crawl-space is cleared of all earth and is 100% exposed bedrock, roughly 1200 sf of solid stone. It is very uneven.
I am wondering if, after sealing out moisture by covering the bedrock floor with heavy plastic sealed to the ICF walls and supplying 'some' heat to the space, filling the floor joists above with Roxul insulation batts (to insulate the floor above) would be a good idea?
The walls of the house will be double-wall with an R-value of either 42 or 50.
The approximate cost to insulate the floor joists to R-24 Roxul 5.5” batts would be $2000.
The approximate cost to spray foam the bedrock floor to R-12 would be $2800, due to the it's uneveness.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Rob.
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dmaceldUser is Offline
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23 Feb 2013 09:26 PM
Posted By robert.thompson on 10 Feb 2013 12:51 PM
Hello:
The point of the following question is to determine the most cost-effective way, both in materials and heating costs, to keep the floor of my house warm.
My 1200 sf single story house foundation will be built on ARXX Prime ICF's (R-22) directly on bedrock and will vary from 2' to 6' in height - average about 4'.
The floor of the crawl-space is cleared of all earth and is 100% exposed bedrock, roughly 1200 sf of solid stone. It is very uneven.
I am wondering if, after sealing out moisture by covering the bedrock floor with heavy plastic sealed to the ICF walls and supplying 'some' heat to the space, filling the floor joists above with Roxul insulation batts (to insulate the floor above) would be a good idea?
The walls of the house will be double-wall with an R-value of either 42 or 50.
The approximate cost to insulate the floor joists to R-24 Roxul 5.5” batts would be $2000.
The approximate cost to spray foam the bedrock floor to R-12 would be $2800, due to the it's uneveness.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Rob.
Interesting that no one else has responded already. My house is all ICF with concrete footings and dirt crawl space. I put insulation around the footings, poly sheeting on the earth covered with 3/4" XPS and on top of that about a 2" concrete 'rat slab'. So my crawl is much the same as yours except for the insulation under the rat slab.

My walls are continuous ICF from the footing to the roof so perimeter sealing was not an issue. I put my air handler for the heat pump in the crawl space and use the entire crawl space as the supply plenum. There is no insulation under the floor. This gives me a guasi radiant heated floor. The concrete slab works as a thermal mass to even out heating and cooling fluctuations.

So, with this in mind my first question is how much earth fill is there above the rock on the outside? What climate are you in? Does snow cover the ground all winter, or no? Are you heating or cooling predominant?

My thoughts are first, make sure the perimeter is well sealed. You will have to exercise particular care there since you have an ICF to frame interface. The ICF will provide adequate perimeter insulation. Make sure the ICF is sealed to the rock with spray foam. Then, condition the crawl space. If you want to make it part of the air system of the house, like mine is, then the foam will need to covered with a fire barrier like 1/2" drywall. Otherwise, duct some of the air into the crawl space to keep it at house temp and exhaust it outside through an HRV or ERV. Consider taking advantage of all that exposed bedrock as thermal mass.

No way would I waste money insulating the underside of the floor. And, don't spend money on poly over the rock, unless there are a lot of openings or cracks that lead down to earth. Moisture isn't going to migrate through rock. If you ventilate the crawl to the outside you don't need to be concerned about radon, if that is an issue in your area.

Now, if the bedrock is exposed outside the house so that you are faced with having a thermal bridge from outside to inside the crawl space then all the above needs to be rethought. In that case I would put foam on the rock, even at the additional cost. Just make provision of some sort to walk and crawl around on it, like raised walkways, without smashing it down so you can do maintenance on the house.

Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
robert.thompsonUser is Offline
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23 Feb 2013 09:56 PM
Thanks dmaceld!
Here are 2 links to pictures of my bedrock.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/001adfmij4byctv/111.JPG
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g5glnee1u8crlf3/pic2.jpg
You may be able to see that the exposed bedrock will be the floor of my crawl-space. The height of the crawl-space will range from 1 foot (foreground left) to 5 feet(foreground right). The far end of the foundation will be about 2 feet high on the left and 3.5 feet high on the right.
There will about 1 foot of earth fill on the out side of the foundation. The house will be about 80 miles north of Montreal - 9,200 HDD. The snow stays all winter. I believe that I am heating predominant.
Covering the ICF insulation will be problematic, unless there is some sort of spray that can be used.
I think that I agree with you - spray foam on the bedrock floor is the way to go. I can't use a 'rat-slab' but maybe part 'rat-slab' and part raised walkways.
Anyway, thanks for responding.
Rob.
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NFCUser is Offline
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26 Feb 2013 12:43 PM
Why are you insulating your crawl space and the floor above it? ICF seems overkill for a crawl space.
robert.thompsonUser is Offline
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26 Feb 2013 01:02 PM
Hi NFC:

The plan has changed:
  1. ICF's will not be used for the foundation.
  2. An 8" foundation will be built on footings pinned to the bedrock.
  3. 2" - 4" of rigid foam will be applied to the exterior of the foundation, and then protected.
  4. The rim joist will be heavily spray foamed.
  5. The inside of the foundation walls will be covered with vapour barrier from sill plate to bedrock.
  6. The bedrock floor of the crawl-space will be covered with 1" of spray foam.
  7. The floor joists above the crawl-space will not be insulated.
  8. The crawl-space will be treated as a 'conditioned space' and will be heated.

Rob.

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FBBPUser is Offline
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01 Mar 2013 09:29 PM
If the crawlspace is to be conditioned then I believe the foam must be thermally protected. Will the exterior foam go right over the rim joist?
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