Help needed ASAP on sealed attic design
Last Post 08 Jun 2009 01:17 PM by mlennox. 11 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
mlennoxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:66

--
26 May 2009 04:41 PM
Hello,

I have received a response from the city on a building permit application for a new home that will have closed cell spray foam placed against the underside of the roof decking to provide a lofted ceiling and sealed attic.  I had not planned any ventilation since the entire attic space is sealed, but they are telling me that ventilation is required between the spray foam and the back side of the gypsum board.  The gypsum board will be installed against the underside of the roof trusses (against the bottom chord), and since the spray foam is 6" deep and the trusses are 2 feet deep, there is a dead air space that exists.

Any ideas how to ventilate this, and is this even a real issue?

Thanks in advance for any responses.
robinncUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:586

--
26 May 2009 06:52 PM
I'd suggest to go to Building Science web site.
BillNUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:53

--
26 May 2009 09:14 PM

It probably depends on where you are in the world, but in NJ where I live an air gap is required, as well as ventilation in the ridge, and/or gables, and soffits.
Typically the roof is not insulated unless there is finished space below.

One way to solve this problem is to insulate the ceiling above the sheetrock instead of the underside of the roof deck. Spray foam can be applied after the sheetrock, but this could be an inspection problem.

Another way to do it would be to install a thin, waffle like plastic barrier to maintain the air gap under the roof deck, and then spray foam on that.

good luck

wesUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:810

--
27 May 2009 07:11 AM
So, in essence, you have an 18" deep attic to deal with.
Did the city give any directions as to quantity of vents or locations? Are your trusses open web in design?
If they gave no directions, and your trusses are open web, then a pair of decorative vents, one low on one end of the truss run, and the other near the peak, at the other end of the truss run, on each slope, should meet the definition of "ventilated".
Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected]
mlennoxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:66

--
27 May 2009 08:37 AM
Posted By wes on 05/27/2009 7:11 AM
So, in essence, you have an 18" deep attic to deal with.
Did the city give any directions as to quantity of vents or locations? Are your trusses open web in design?
If they gave no directions, and your trusses are open web, then a pair of decorative vents, one low on one end of the truss run, and the other near the peak, at the other end of the truss run, on each slope, should meet the definition of "ventilated".

But the "attic" space is conditioned and inside the heated envelope.  So we have roof decking, 6" SPF, 18" air, then drywall.  If I vent the 18" of air space to the outside, I'm now venting the heated space to the outside.
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
27 May 2009 09:14 AM
Are you sure there's a requirement that it be ventilated, and not just "air gap", between the gypsum & 2lb foam?

I've heard of ventilation being required between foam & roof deck, but never actual VENTIlATION between foam & gypsum. The theory behind the roof-deck/foam ventilation requirement is that the roof deck needs a means of drying from micro-leaks & exterior vapor-drives to keep the wood from saturating over time, but I can't imagine a valid reason for needing ventilation on the interior side, given the permeability of gypsum board.

Make the inspector read & explain the letter of the code to you- this sounds like a newbie misinterpreting things. Under no circumstances should you ventilate the interior-side forming a thermal bypass of the foam insulation. If ventilation is required between the foam & roof deck there are many ways of getting there.

If there's something in the code that requires air-communication through the interior side gap between foam & gypsum, see if they'll accept interior-side vents at the bottom & top of each cavity to allow interior convection loops behind the gypsum without introducing outside air. Seems like it would only be a "problem" if you used highly vapor retardent finishes on the interior forming a vapor trap between gypsum & foam, which would never be a problem as long as some minscule amount of interior air could loop through there. Condensation from that introduced convection would never be a problem, since it's all inside the thermal boundary, and the dew point temps will always occur well-inside the foam.
mlennoxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:66

--
27 May 2009 09:18 AM
Posted By Dana1 on 05/27/2009 9:14 AM
Are you sure there's a requirement that it be ventilated, and not just "air gap", between the gypsum & 2lb foam?

I've heard of ventilation being required between foam & roof deck, but never actual VENTIlATION between foam & gypsum. The theory behind the roof-deck/foam ventilation requirement is that the roof deck needs a means of drying from micro-leaks & exterior vapor-drives to keep the wood from saturating over time, but I can't imagine a valid reason for needing ventilation on the interior side, given the permeability of gypsum board.

Make the inspector read & explain the letter of the code to you- this sounds like a newbie misinterpreting things. Under no circumstances should you ventilate the interior-side forming a thermal bypass of the foam insulation. If ventilation is required between the foam & roof deck there are many ways of getting there.

If there's something in the code that requires air-communication through the interior side gap between foam & gypsum, see if they'll accept interior-side vents at the bottom & top of each cavity to allow interior convection loops behind the gypsum without introducing outside air. Seems like it would only be a "problem" if you used highly vapor retardent finishes on the interior forming a vapor trap between gypsum & foam, which would never be a problem as long as some minscule amount of interior air could loop through there. Condensation from that introduced convection would never be a problem, since it's all inside the thermal boundary, and the dew point temps will always occur well-inside the foam.

This is definitely an issue of not understanding by the plan examiner.  I have put together a host of information for them that should suffice.  As well, the air gap that exists in the cathedral portion of the attic is actually open to a larger mechanical crawl space (also part of the conditioned space) that will have the air handler.  So the air handler will provide some level of air circulation through a register in the crawl space.
wesUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:810

--
27 May 2009 08:19 PM
Mlennox,
You misunderstand the location of the 'vents' I mentioned. They would be located in the drywall ceiling. The 'ventilation' would be with conditioned air. Since the 'attic space' is inside the thermal envelope, it is part of the conditioned space.
Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected]
mlennoxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:66

--
28 May 2009 07:46 AM
Posted By wes on 05/27/2009 8:19 PM
Mlennox,
You misunderstand the location of the 'vents' I mentioned. They would be located in the drywall ceiling. The 'ventilation' would be with conditioned air. Since the 'attic space' is inside the thermal envelope, it is part of the conditioned space.

Thanks wes, after re-reading your response I figured that's what you meant.  It's probably not a bad idea to do anyway, and really I would only need venting at the low end of the trusses since the high portion will be open to a larger mechanical crawlspace containing the air handler and HRV.  There will be an air register inside the crawl space, so positive air pressure should actuall force air down the cathedral ceiling slope and then out through this vent.

My only concern with the vent would be whether it would be seen as breaking fire code.  The spray foam against the roof deck must be separated from living space by a fire barrier (drywall).
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
28 May 2009 09:09 AM
I've been admonished that it's really a "thermal barrier", not a "fire barrier" (which has a different definition in building-code-speak) that's required. There may be a requirement for a separate thermal barrier between the mechanical stuff and the foam if say, a failure in the air handler could become an ignition source (not likely , but if the inspector didn't call you on it, don't ask!)

Seems to me that if there are even tiny source & return vents in the air-handler space, and it that space is open to the rafter bays it's already vented from a drying-capacity point of view. There may be fire-code issues with potential spread of toxic smoke via the air handler should the foam ignite in that scenario, but the same would be true in the pressurized space with rafter-bay vents condition.


mlennoxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:66

--
28 May 2009 09:15 AM
Posted By Dana1 on 05/28/2009 9:09 AM
I've been admonished that it's really a "thermal barrier", not a "fire barrier" (which has a different definition in building-code-speak) that's required. There may be a requirement for a separate thermal barrier between the mechanical stuff and the foam if say, a failure in the air handler could become an ignition source (not likely , but if the inspector didn't call you on it, don't ask!)

Seems to me that if there are even tiny source & return vents in the air-handler space, and it that space is open to the rafter bays it's already vented from a drying-capacity point of view. There may be fire-code issues with potential spread of toxic smoke via the air handler should the foam ignite in that scenario, but the same would be true in the pressurized space with rafter-bay vents condition.



My interpretation of the fire code definitions for this case are that as long as the crawl-space is less than 1.8 metres in height and the crawl-space itself is not being used as a plenum, then the foam can be left exposed in the crawlspace without gypsum board.  Besides this, the air handler is using a water coil for heating and cooling with no combustion.
mlennoxUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:66

--
08 Jun 2009 01:17 PM
Hi all.

I received my permit, but I had to agree to a layer of vapor barrier between the spray foam and the conditioned space. I'm not sure how this requirement doesn't create a major problem, since there will now be a layer of sealed dead air between the spray foam and the VB which will have to be installed against the bottom chord of the trusses. The trusses are approx. 2 feet deep and the foam is only 5-6 inches. I don't see any way to have the VB directly against the foam.

Does anyone have any advice on this?
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: Steve Toorongian New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 1 User Count Overall: 34721
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 111 Members Members: 1 Total Total: 112
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement