passive solar
Last Post 20 Feb 2014 10:36 PM by georgec. 76 Replies.
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20 Jan 2014 09:30 PM
hello, my name is George and I am planning to build a special home, everybody should build one in a life time, I got quite a bit turned on by the Earthship concept and the area I am in it's pretty openminded just not sure how much I can do, I plan to handle it on my own out of pocket a little at a time, I am quite impressed with what I read about those earthships, but I do not know how much can I do, plans cost and at the moment I am kindof debating weather to just go for it or look into other Ideas, I read a book about pole buildings a while back and that seemed very interesting that they offered all sorts of open plan options, than I got the idea of maybe build a pole house much in the earthship concept, take away the floors and the walls and do an earthen floor and walls, I drew it up but I am no architect, I am here looking for inspiration pointers help one of my dilemas with the earthship design, is why the roof pitch that they do is so low, for a passive solar home especially one built arround solar heating, I would have thought you would want the roof pitch to match the low winter sun and shine the entire house, in those designs sunlight barely hits the floor, not the back wall, maybe because it's made of tires and heating them is a bad idea? maybe because they are trying to keep them low to the ground. any thoughts much apreciated


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20 Jan 2014 09:57 PM
why the roof pitch that they do is so low
You'd have to be more specific about the roof pitch. I have noticed that many passive solars are more of a modern style and they tend to have the low pitch roofs. A passive solar needs bigger eaves than many people are accustomed to. Maybe that is part of the reason.
It's hard to imagine you're going to get much of a passive solar without plans as they are all about engineering and planning.

Where do you plan to build this earthship?


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21 Jan 2014 11:29 AM
exeter michigan I think I pretty much gave up on a full blown earthship. there are things about the design I like and some I am not entirely sure of. like the tire wall for example, I had my reservation about it but for the thermal mass benefit I considered it however there are other ways to go about it. as for the roof pitch, I asume you are familiar with Earthships I attached a floorplan I downloaded, the living space is about 17 feet wide, the roof pitch is very shalow, say 5 degrees, it only raises couple feet over the 17 foot span, in michgan dec 21st hiigh noon sun is about 28degrees, do the math the light will reach up to the back wall but not above the floor, I would have thought a 24 degree cathedral ceiling would be better to let the sun shine the entire back wall, I have some drawings AT HOME i'll try to take a picture of, I am no architect, not a wall mart greeter either :) maybe putting that tire wall under a huge magnifying glass is a bad idea, maybe in the NM desert a low roof pitch makes sense to catch more rain watter, maybe a 24 degree cathedral ceiling ends up to be too tall and all the hot air raises up, like I said I am no architect, I have a good understanding of fizics, diferent fields never really looked at buildings. I have also attached a quick hand sketch a picture is worth a 1000 words there are other designs I have looked at, none have cathedral ceilings at 24 degrees due south, is it possible to catch too much sun? Michael Reynolds spoke of making that mistake at some point. I'll try to get some pictures of my drawings and post them I'd love an opinion, most the people arround me have no clue I have no one to talk to and honestly most architects are so caught up in theyir cubicals photocopying subdivissions I'm not even going to try and source one locally.

Attachment: 40542170003.PDF
Attachment: 40542170007.PDF

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21 Jan 2014 11:48 AM
I have a good understanding of fizics
Okay, but there is no use in reinventing the wheel. Maybe you should look at all the previous work done on earthships and passive solars to get an idea of what to do and what not to do.
honestly most architects are so caught up in theyir cubicals photocopying subdivissions
Maybe you should get an issue of the local AIA newsletter in order to see if you can find an architect that shares your interests in these things. I know they are out there.


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21 Jan 2014 12:15 PM
We have never done an Earthship passive solar design, but we have done many conventional passive solar building designs. You might find the passive solar software on our website to be useful for your project. As ICF indicated, a passive solar design is largely about getting the roof overhang and window area correct so as to generate the maximum heating BTUs without overheating the building. ICF and I often debate the best approach for doing this, but as long as you have an approach that gets the job done, you will be happy.


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21 Jan 2014 01:47 PM
thanks for the input, the AIA news letter is something I did not know about, and as I pointed out I have looked at what has been done, either Earthships or Conventional passive solar, the earthships are designed so that the low winter sun only reaches the floor, most conventional passive solar that I looked at were in the south west and for the most part had one large window to the south, maybe an overhang to shade the summer. Most thermal mass thermal buildings that I looked at , particularly in the New Mexico desert, or Phoenix Arizona adobe is popular, yes they get very low temperatures at night similar to Michigan, but they also have high temperatures during the day too, so if anything just simply building out of rammed earth regardless of design the walls act as a buffer closing in the gap. In Michigan it gets cold in the fall and doesn’t warm up again till may, that’s what I mean when I say I have a good understanding of physics, I will certainly look up the borst website, and as soon as I get a chance I’ll see about posting my plans George


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21 Jan 2014 02:05 PM
found the website, brieflly looked at the passive sollar tools, pretty cool what you did there those tools make it simple for anybody to figure out such dimensions, but for the most part I know trigonometry also, I figured out all the angles overhangs the school book way, just saying got that covered, I wonder if I did not overdo it thou, pretty much licking every drop of sun possible, full 24.48 degrees cathedral ceiling due south about 17 feet of glass height I believe it worked out to be, all this for a one level home, and yes I did consider enough overhang to fully shade the living space on june 21st. 71.35 degrees in my case


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21 Jan 2014 03:35 PM
Thanks George.

Well, for true "passive" solar, you don’t want your daily maximum clear-sky BTUs to exceed your daily building heat loss BTUs. If you plan to augment your passive solar design with "active" elements (e.g., drapes, hydronic radiant floor system, ventilation system, etc.) you can violate this rule to the extent that your "active" elements will prevent overheating or undesired temp swings. Obviously, you also want your daily climatic BTUs to provide as much of your daily building heat loss BTUs as possible. The only way to know if your design is on target is to accomplish a proper BTU heat gain/loss analysis for your actual building design and location for each day of the year.

You normally want the overhang to provide full shade and full sun at the appropriate dates for your climate and not simply target Summer/Winter Solitice. Our passive solar software instructions explain this in more detail.


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21 Jan 2014 04:07 PM
Posted By sailawayrb on 21 Jan 2014 03:35 PM
Thanks George.

Well, for true "passive" solar, you don’t want your daily maximum clear-sky BTUs to exceed your daily building heat loss BTUs. If you plan to augment your passive solar design with "active" elements (e.g., drapes, hydronic radiant floor system, ventilation system, etc.) you can violate this rule to the extent that your "active" elements will prevent overheating or undesired temp swings. Obviously, you also want your daily climatic BTUs to provide as much of your daily building heat loss BTUs as possible. The only way to know if your design is on target is to accomplish a proper BTU heat gain/loss analysis for your actual building design and location for each day of the year.

You normally want the overhang to provide full shade and full sun at the appropriate dates for your climate and not simply target Summer/Winter Solitice. Our passive solar software instructions explain this in more detail.


ok I am learning even more I like where this is going. like I said only had some time briefly to look through the calculators/software, the daily heat loss, this would be interesting to calculate, I have an ideea of how to go about it and I saw some such calculators on your website, need a lot of speciffics about each materials r value, and honestly, if you could see things through my eyes for a minute you would realise its more like an estimate rather than a calculation, there are so many things to consider, and even if you "calculate" for each day of the year, some years are different than others, and some drawings and theory differs in practice, we're getting into the data overload section here. I am looking at this project in a bit more simpleminded way, I would love to see a house overheat in a Michigan winter without fuel and have to vent some of the heat out, that beeing said that is my scope here I think, I could be going about it the wrong way, maybe. as for the summer, heck definately drapes go without saying, reflective ones maybe, ventilation too, I don't know if you actually looked into an earthship design, to trully understand the concept, they employ a Green house, to the south of the building basicaly, which also doubles as a buffer zone/mud room if you will, the green house heat in the summer raises drawing cool air from the underground cooling tubes ( ventilation ), also I'm sure the plants also help regulate the temperature/moisture but nobody talks about that, pretty interesting stuff. I will find some time and read the instructions, I just dove right in it , thought they explained what an overhang is for your average reader, one thing you pointed out and I had a feeling about this, you speak of full sun and full shade at the apropriate dates, this had been bugging me because the solstice thou the most extreme sun angle is not necesarily the most extreme temperature of the year, february is usually the coldest day, and mid august is when the temperatures hit theyr peak, by february the sun has climed some and part of the thermal mass would be shaded, the oposite in the summer by august the sun would be dropping allready, heating the house in the hottest day of the year, that thought had crossed my mind, just could not find the word for it, need to read more


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21 Jan 2014 06:55 PM
I kindof diagonally read through the instructions, still at work, I like the way you go about it, no rules of thumb, the one thing that we have a different view on:

"Again, the objective of a good passive solar heating system design is to minimize (eliminate) the need for supplemental heating while NEVER ( let it overheat, wont take much to vent it in the middle of februarry ) overheating the building."

IN PARANTHESYS is my thought process, up untill recently I was not aware that you can overheat a house especially in the winter, aparently its doable Michael Reynolds discovered that by mistake, watch Garbage Warrior, besides, shades go without saying, I wouldn't even consider them as "active" I wou;ld much rather have to pull the shades than have a chimney stack.

you and I are talking about different animals, the solar design you speak of ( no offense here ) is what I refer to a normal house with a south facing window ( I know it's a bit more involved ). Solar design in my head is about drawing up the whole house arround the concept.

For example you speak of window area, rule of thumb 7-12% of the floor space, heck I was going for more south facing window area than floor all together counting closets too, further more 2 layers of double panes, one on the outside perpendicular to low winter angle, one vertical on the inside, I am begining to believe you may not be very familiar with Earthships and have understood what I am trying to acomplish, after all the name is not that popular.

for example thermal mass callculator, the way they are built, burried from 3 sides with an earthen floor well below the frost line heck I would not be far off to say the whole planet is theyr thermal mass, now Michael Reynolds is a bit foar out there and some of his ways are way too radical, he would have probably had a lot more success if he did not try to recicle bottles and tires while building a house, some of that I am not too excited about but I do like the concept of starting with a blank sheet and draw up the house based on what works rather than a familiar style, looks or the owners preference and floor plan, and than try to incorporate solar design into it and compensate with hydronic systems, honestly what is best?

Pulling the shades if it gets too hot, or using a hydronic system because you don't have enough gain, this is why I would not consider a local average runn of the mill architect, here you are pretty opened minded and rather involved, yet you refer to solar design as retrofiting an existing home to incorporate some princyples, even if you drew it from scratch you still start with the same basic idea, square house pointed roof, windows about 3 feet off the floor

some of my remarks may sound a bit rash, that is not what I am trying to acomplish, just pointing out some clear diferences between what most consider passive solar design and what I thought the term ment. I am not interested in looks, victorian or ranch, just want it to work an look like it does a good job, boy did I have some explaining to do with the wife, she is a lot simpler.

anyway if I ever get out from work I'll see about some pictures, ( 1000 words )

George


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22 Jan 2014 10:42 AM
I have attached a couple drawings I made just so I can see my thoughts, it is to scale 1 inch=1foot I don't have the dimensions on it yet but north is to the left, pretty self explanatory much like an Earthship, solstice angles are at the top right, its a pole building + a greenhouse to the south the living space is in between the first 2 poles starting from left, I posted a rough half floor plan to explain it a bit, all the closets are to the north providing an extra 5 foot of buffer space, the peak at the top of the sofit works out to be about 17 feet, that concerns me a bit as high ceilings are not a energy efficient feature, the south wall is supposed to be all glass perpendicular to the winter sun. the rest of the walls and floor I would like to be Rammed Earth, not entirely sure how to go about it as far as sealing it from the elements, vapor block all that stuff, exterior walls 2 foot thick with some insulation built in kindof like the Syrewall ( think that is what they call it ), insde room walls 1 foot plain rammed earth they are the thermal mass and sun catch George well this is my idea of passive solar design


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22 Jan 2014 12:02 PM
I would love to see a house overheat in a Michigan winter without fuel
Sure, that's fun on a few choice days, but then, what happens in the Spring, Summer and Fall?


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22 Jan 2014 01:22 PM
good point, but you guys really need to read about Earthships and Michael Reynolds, this guy should be nominated for the Nobel Price as far as I am concerned, I asumed you are familiar with the concept, if you arent you don't see the big picture. I had some time to work on the drawing this morning added some features that some may consider "active" they are just cooling tubes and vents, also figured most measurements. To answear your question, the greenhouse portion is ment to overheat in the summer, as the hot air rises through to the vents with the house sealed it creates a vacum the only air it can draw is from the underground tubes, you can call that active cooling if you will but it is solar powered, it's called a convection engine, this is ancient stuff, Michael Reynolds has been building houses this way for over 40 years, honestly some of his methods are a bit funny and most people can't see beyound that, what I am trying to acomplish is the same concept in a more conventional way, pole house with rammed earth walls and earthen floors. ICF ( insulated concrete form I asume )where I am stuck at the moment, I do not know enough about vapor block and watter proofing, have a look at the new drawing, the floor level goes well below the frost line, I know the code says something about at least a foot above the weatter table, not sure what is it I am supposed to do here, in Earthship construction they wrap the building in plastic, is that all there is to a vapor block? any other measures I should consider?


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22 Jan 2014 03:59 PM
Hi George,

Yes, as I originally indicated in my initial response, we do NOT have any experience with designing/constructing Earthships. We studied them perhaps 10 years ago, but we concluded that they were too problematic and too unconventional for our vast majority of customers.

For locations suitable for passive solar, we can easily achieve 50% annual heating requirements via pure “passive” solar and we can even push the 100% boundary if we integrate the passive solar with hydronic radiant and with heat storage. We can accomplish this with a conventional single story ranch style building design, using well a insulated building envelope, simply orienting the solar fenestration wall toward the equator, and minimizing the fenestration on the other walls. Integrating passive solar with hydronic radiant also allows us to get very aggressive with capturing solar heat without having any overheating issues. Controlling and moving hot water is easy and predictable compared to capturing and storing heat in earth.  In short, the engineering associated with our conventional passive solar designs is relatively straight forward and we have not yet had any customer demand to motivate us toward an Earthship design approach. You seem well versed on the Earthship design approach, but here is an interesting article I read recently that perhaps you have not seen:

Earthship Europe

I have little doubt that Earthships can get the job done if you can work through all the details and get them right. However, our interests have never aligned with Earthships and these days we only work on projects that fully capture our interests and passions.


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22 Jan 2014 05:30 PM
exeter michigan
So, assuming earthships are powered by the sun, what happens when there isn't any? I'd be surprised if you had sun 1/3 of the days in Winter there in Michigan. Passive solar is nice to reduce energy usage as long as you don't increase your summer cooling energy needs, but the notion that you can get it all from the sun (in Michigan) is not too realistic.


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22 Jan 2014 08:26 PM
very good article, I came across it before but never had a chance to read it, it kindof answears icf's question too, getting it all from the sun is indeed unrealistic, that was never the claim, sorry if I may have mislead you, the concept is to have an earthen floor ( concrete could work but it does not have the same properties ) well below the frost line, where the earths temperature is constant, that is supposed to be the main source of heat, while the sun gain is ment to boost it a bit more.

I folowed the link in that article, to play it safe average temp in my area is 49 F that is aproximately the temperature of the earth below the frost line, so in theory that floor should never get below 49F, as massive as it is it is considerable hotter than the average 23F outside temperature in january, another way to look at it, the house acts as a crack in the frost line the heat is known to go from the hotter object to the colder, folowing the easiest path, so in theory without the solar gain the house should stay at 49F, the solar gain is supposed to bump it the rest of the way.

further more heat transfer ocurs faster with larger differences, when it is -20 outside in the middle of the night that floor could come in handy, that got me thinking thou, even Reynolds mentioned in a colder climate, might want to insulate below the floor, I get lots of moisture here, there are quite a few diferences from new mexico, I knew that, it's part of the reason I decided to draw up my own in that concept rather than go for the global model drawings,

Thanks for slowing me down a bit I was getting a little too excited too fast, bottom line at some point Reynolds did mention that in extreme climates with low sun ( 3 hours a day for me ) some aditional heating will be required but subtle forms will do as they are heavily insulated.

now that I think about it having a naturaly heated floor to about 49F sounds good, if you are happy with 49F indoor temp, we mostly run it at 70, with some solar gain, and massive rammed earth walls I am hopping that I can get away with some modest electric heaters, I really don't want a chimney on that house, the problem I see now when I am trying to keep the indoor temp at 70 the 49F floor is a heat sink rather than a source, now heat tends to travel up, you boil watter from below not the top, do having 70 degree air on top of 49 degree floor, not sure how much heat loss that adds up to, or how it would compare to an insulated crawl space, that's where you boys come in.

a 49F floor sounds real good in the summer, with those massive rammed earth walls looking like finns on a heat sink.

deffinately worth thinking about, which brings me to my earlier question, I'd like to have an earthen floor, how should I go about sealing it, this is where I don't know enough, I asume it should be done in a simmilar maner as concrete basements, I don't know enough about them either, maybe you boys can point me to some good readings on that


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22 Jan 2014 09:45 PM
the concept is to have an earthen floor ( concrete could work but it does not have the same properties ) well below the frost line, where the earths temperature is constant, that is supposed to be the main source of heat,
Okay, I have two rooms well below the frost line. Unfortunately, the earth temperature down there keeps my wine and my fruit and vegetables at about 57F. That is uncomfortably cool for me.
I'd like to have an earthen floor,
I'd be surprised if you could meet building code with a dirt floor.


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22 Jan 2014 09:57 PM
Sorry George, we don’t have any experience sealing or finishing earth floors either. However, I wouldn’t think that pouring a concrete floor over the earth floor (i.e., without any insulation) would significantly change the building thermal dynamics. A 49F earth floor or concrete floor will indeed still result in significant heat loss with a 70F indoor design temp. I think you are discovering the problems with Earthships that initially turned us off from them many years ago. There appears to be very little applied scientific data that can be used to develop robust engineering equations to design with confidence and to accurately forecast how these buildings will perform in different solar locations and climates. We also have a strong desire to spend as many of our days above ground for as long as possible.


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22 Jan 2014 11:39 PM
Posted By sailawayrb on 22 Jan 2014 09:57 PM
  We also have a strong desire to spend as many of our days above ground for as long as possible.



I believe that is one of the main reasons they did not attain popularity. Most people don't like living underground.

Posted By sailawayrb on 22 Jan 2014 09:57 PM
  A 49F earth floor or concrete floor will indeed still result in significant heat loss with a 70F indoor design temp. I think you are discovering the problems with Earthships that initially turned us off from them many years ago.


From Wiki:

Some earthships appear to have serious problems with heat loss. In these cases heat appears to be leaking into the ground constantly during the heating season and being lost. This situation may have arisen from the mistaken belief that ground-coupled structures (building in thermal contact with the ground) do not require insulation. The situation may also be due to large climatic differences between the sunny, arid, and warm Southwest (of the USA) where earthships were first built and the cloudier, cooler, and wetter climates where some are now being built.


The south sloping windows were also problematic to seal and stop the leaking.



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23 Jan 2014 12:14 AM
I sure apreciate you boys getting involved, got nobody arround me to discuss this with, the wife is trying bless her heart, but this is a bit beyond her.

So one at a time, stable temperature below the frost line is confirmed, 57 would be great I am looking at 49 not so much, now granted those wine bottles would never freeze I would not be too confortable living there either, now what would happen if you shined massive amounts of sunlight in there? I tested this, at work I got a large window directly to the south an I placed a thermometer behind it, the temperature easily rises well over by 10 F as soon as the sun peaks through the clouds, and that window is tinted, it's great not to worry about pipes never freezing that is one thing but trying to keep the house at 80f with a massive 49F heatsink below may not be such a great Idea, even in the European report the only one that did good was in Spain, what impressed me about the concept is that they managed to maintain 70F on a -30F night with no fuel and they do this repetedly, thou, Spain much like NM is considerably further south, the NM cold temps are more a result of the altitude rather than latitude, and those -30F are more like nightly spikes, here it gets cold and it spikes colder and it stays that way for a long time, likely in NM or Spain for that matter the temperature during the day it's much higher than Michigan.

the dirt floor is not much of a concern, notice I call it an earthen floor, I don't mean loose dirt, there are ways about it, I am rather impressed what I read about Rammed earth walls, something simmilar could be done for the floor, some builders cheat with 10% cement, teracotta tiles could be installed, etc, there are ways about that, that is what I reffer to an earthen floor, those are minor details, the code does not prohibit the use of any materials, I checked, I could build a global model earthsip, tires and all as odd as it may sound there is nothing in the code preventing it, the inspector had some concerns we checked with the respective agencies no red flags, I had some reservations on the other hand, besides it looks like a lot of work pounding and plastering, I'll never finish it, I like rammed earth because I allready have a large compresor, I need a pogo stick material is on site gravel pits nearby, 2 forms and off I go.

my concern was more geared towards how I go about watterproofing it not so much finishing, and yes I am discovering some issues, I tried to use your calculators but for the most part there is no good way to go about it with this design, I mentioned in a previous post a rough estimate at best.

the house underground is a missconception thou, floor below frost line key word, most earthships have the floor at grade level, they build this artificial berm behind them sheltering them, a Walk out basement is a better comparisson, there is one done this way not far from me has a green roof and all. the clerk at the city hall mentioned a friend of hers built it in the 80's, surprisingly thou this is a small farmers comunity the officials are very knowleadgeable and open minded. I learned of another in upstate NY and one in England, mostly concrete construction no furnace at all, not Earthships exactly but same Idea, Earth bermed I believe is the proper term.

I just got done watchig some videos on basement waterproofing, the whole concept of a floor below grade is a watterproofing nightmare, saw some state of the art waterproofing repairs, honestly very discuraging I would not want a basement at all.

On the other hand if I were to go with a plain conventional slab foundation that sits on top of the frost line how would that be any better, I now have a floor that is naturally whatever temperature is out side, the idea is that it take less effort to bring it up to 80 from 49 rather than -17F, a crawl space is off the ground and insulated but no thermal mass, my current house is done this way and if the furnace quits by morning I'll have burst pipes. so which one is worst, I am still at war with that, in some sense I am discovering some issues on the other hand we may be overthinking this.

but in conclusion, I am still rather fond of my fancy pole frame work, I still like the idea of all large windows to the south, the buffer zone/greenhouse, I like the idea of Rammed Earth walls to the north and no windows, there should be plenty of light since the design is one room deep from the south, I like the closet space as a buffer to the north, and the room walls as thermal mass colectors, honestly the floor is questionable, below grade presents some watterproofing issues just like any basement, I am starting to think a 49F floor can't possibly be worst than a plain slab at grade level. got some head scratching to to.

George


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