Modified Larsen Truss or is that a mistake?
Last Post 27 May 2015 03:03 PM by Robert Riversong. 12 Replies.
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robert.thompsonUser is Offline
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26 Nov 2012 09:44 PM
I read this 'Modified Larsen Truss' article: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/LarsenTruss/LarsenTruss.htm where the builder uses no sheathing, no vapor barrier and no heat recovery ventilator and no ventilator, period. (He does use an Air-tight Drywall System and a latex VB primer.) Then I read this article: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/high-r-value-wall-assemblies/high-r-wall-05-truss-wall-construction?topic=resources/high-r-value-wall-assemblies which really cautions the use of the Larsen Truss system and specifies a much different truss construction. I'm looking at using the 'Modified Larsen Truss' wall construction for a house north of Montreal, Quebec. The 2 articles, one positive & one negative, are giving me doubts. Does anyone have experience with this 'Modified Larsen Truss' system? Thanks, Rob.
Rob.

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Dana1User is Offline
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28 Nov 2012 03:32 PM
Robert Riversong has been building high-R structures for quite awhile, and while his approach works-mostly in his climate (mostly US zone 6), there are some aspects that may need improvement for colder climates.

Without exterior sheathing with only clapboards & houswrap holding the dense-packed cellulose the housewrap is packed tight to the backside of the clapboards, giving it far less back-ventilation than a typical clapboard, which puts them at a higher risk of wintertime moisture accumulation. This can be further aggravated if the 18" roof overhangs aren't maintained (or increased) to further limit wetting from the exterior. His rule of thumb on overhangs appears to be an inch for every vertical foot of siding, but that's not necessarily good enough for wind-driven rain, nor does it deal with splash-back of drips from the edge of the eaves. Without back-vented siding a good portion of moisture that makes it past the clapboard will end up in the cellulose. Whether the drying rates would be quick enough that the cellulose could tolerate it without settling (or worse, saturating), or whether the clapboards would eventually suffer is local-climate dependent.

The settling of cellulose over time is a function of moisture cycling, and the manufacturer-specified 3.1lbs density stated in the article may work in a US zone 6 climate in wall structures better protected from rain intrusion, I'm not convinced it's going to be an adequate density in his buildings, and may not be adequate for colder climates. Danish researcher Torben Valdbjørn Rasmussen has quantified this in careful lab & field studies. The short English language version outlining his work on cellulose lives here: http://vbn.aau.dk/files/18887948/Verification_of_density_predicted_for_prevention_of_settling.pdf

It may take 20 years to find out if Riversong's insulation settles, or it may come sooner, but it's unlikely it'll be widely publicized if/when it does.

For a colder/wetter/windier climates adding an exterior sheathing layer to hold in the cellulose then furring-out a proper rainscreen gap to limit rain intrusion & enhance the drying rate toward the exterior seems prudent. It doesn't hurt to add another 10% to the over hangs either. While the miosture buffering capacity of cellulose is large, it isn't infinite.

There are other ways in which you'd run afoul with Canadian building codes with Riversong's approach- the lack of interior vapor barrier is just the beginning. SFAIK cellulose does not qualify as a fire-blocking material, but you may be able to meet that with sheets of rigid high-density Roxul rather than horisontal planking.

robert.thompsonUser is Offline
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01 Dec 2012 08:46 PM
Hi Dana1:


I read your response with great interest.


Thank you for your thoughtful reply.


Rob.


Rob.

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jonrUser is Offline
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02 Dec 2012 09:54 AM
I agree that a siding that holds moisture and no rain gap isn't a good idea in many climates. The general lack of concern about interior/exterior pressure differentials doesn't help. Use stabilized cellulose and there won't be any settling.
Robert RiversongUser is Offline
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22 May 2015 12:05 PM
Robert Thompson has misunderstood my building system (and it is a whole-house system, not simply an envelope), as I include controlled spot and whole-house ventilation in every home, using the bath exhaust fan on a timer coupled with passive make-up air inlets (which is the lowest cost, lowest maintenance, and most effective system).

When operating, this maintains a negative pressure in the home (unlike a "balanced" system which doesn't change the normal stack-effect pressure differentials), and thereby mitigates the exfiltration of warm, moist air which is the source of insterstitial condensation in the insulated envelope, and eventual mold, rot and insect infestation problems.

For the complete building philosophy and the building science behind my whole-systems approach to natural, affordable and healthy homes, see my blog Riversong HouseWright: A Home for Sensible Homes.
Robert RiversongUser is Offline
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22 May 2015 12:51 PM
Dana1 also misunderstands the building science behind my Riversong Truss wall system.

He says:

Without exterior sheathing with only clapboards & houswrap holding the dense-packed cellulose the housewrap is packed tight to the backside of the clapboards, giving it far less back-ventilation than a typical clapboard, which puts them at a higher risk of wintertime moisture accumulation. This can be further aggravated if the 18" roof overhangs aren't maintained (or increased) to further limit wetting from the exterior. His rule of thumb on overhangs appears to be an inch for every vertical foot of siding, but that's not necessarily good enough for wind-driven rain, nor does it deal with splash-back of drips from the edge of the eaves. Without back-vented siding a good portion of moisture that makes it past the clapboard will end up in the cellulose. Whether the drying rates would be quick enough that the cellulose could tolerate it without settling (or worse, saturating), or whether the clapboards would eventually suffer is local-climate dependent.

Back-ventilation behind wooden cladding is necessary only in the most extreme rain/wind zones (such as coastal hurricane zones) and by the use of non-breathing (vapor impermeable) wall materials, such as petrochemical insulation. It can be eliminated in most climate zones if the wooden cladding is back-sealed and end-grain-sealed during installation.

I have no such "rule of thumb" for roof overhangs, which are largely determined by summer solar shading requirements by latitude. For weather protection, more is better though anything more than 24" typically requires engineered structural support. The amount of roof protection required is also a function of the micro-climate and amount of local wind protection from topography, trees and other structures.

Back-splash at the ground can be mitigated by proper ground clearance, ground texture, and ground grade, and virtually eliminated by the proper installation of gutters and downspouts, which are standard on all my homes. A 1" rainfall on a 1,000 SF roof will drop 600 gallons of water at the foundation, which is foolish no matter the building methodology.

The settling of cellulose over time is a function of moisture cycling, and the manufacturer-specified 3.1lbs density stated in the article may work in a US zone 6 climate in wall structures better protected from rain intrusion, I'm not convinced it's going to be an adequate density in his buildings, and may not be adequate for colder climates.

Moisture cycling under normal conditions has no effect on cellulose settling, which is solely a function of density, surface friction and proper application. Cellulose insulation can absorb and release up to 30% of its weight in water without effect and redistributes local moisture concentrations faster than any other insulation or construction material, thereby protecting wood framing from dangerous levels of moisture accumulation.

All cold-climate homes must have interior relative humidity controlled by local and whole-house ventilation and avoidance of the common bad construction practices (such as lack of roof gutters or improperly drained and water-proofed basements) that create moisture intrusion issues. But an envelope with a large moisture buffer can accommodate relative humidity fluctuations better than non-hygroscopic materials and systems.

I aim for a minimum of 3.1 pcf cellulose density, but almost always exceed that. Contrary to Rasmussen's calculations, the gravity settled density of cellulose in an attic loose-fill application is 1.4 pcf, so any density exceeding that is like compressing a cellulose sponge in a confined space and doubling that density virtually eliminates any possibility of settling. I've seen a dense-packed demonstration wall section with clear and smooth plexiglass coverings that was trailered at highway speeds to multiple home shows with not a trace of settling.

For a colder/wetter/windier climates adding an exterior sheathing layer to hold in the cellulose then furring-out a proper rainscreen gap to limit rain intrusion & enhance the drying rate toward the exterior seems prudent. It doesn't hurt to add another 10% to the over hangs either.

A properly-installed weather-resistant barrier (housewrap) prevents the intrusion of liquid water and condensation on the inside of the barrier material is possible only if there are voids (which are impossible with dense-packed cellulose. Moisture accumulation, either diurnal or seasonal, is a function of the balance between wetting rates and drying rates, with drying direction reversed when solar heating occurs on the outer cladding. If you use a poly vapor barrier on the interior, which prevents drying to the interior, then you may need a rainscreen to enhance drying to the exterior and prevent solar-forced moisture migration.

But, if you follow the International Residential Code, which mandates only a vapor retarder on the interior (such as latex VB primer) and maximize the drying potential to the outside by minimizing the number of layers, then you will optimize the drying potential of your envelope, as is the case with my Riversong Truss Wall System.

There are other ways in which you'd run afoul with Canadian building codes with Riversong's approach- the lack of interior vapor barrier is just the beginning. SFAIK cellulose does not qualify as a fire-blocking material, but you may be able to meet that with sheets of rigid high-density Roxul rather than horisontal planking.

If you can't convince your code authority that the IRC vapor retarder is an improvement over the now-obsolete vapor barrier standard, then you may have to compensate for that foolishness by an otherwise unnecessary modification such as a rainscreen.

And densepack cellulose has been third-party approved as a firestop, and three different building code officials I've worked with have approved it for that purpose. A 1994 Research Council of Canada study found that cellulose increased the fire-resistance of wall systems 40% over rock wool, and Omega Point Laboratories found that cellulose of minimum 14.5" depth outperformed solid wood blocking as a firestop.




Robert RiversongUser is Offline
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22 May 2015 12:58 PM
Posted By jonr on 02 Dec 2012 09:54 AM
I agree that a siding that holds moisture and no rain gap isn't a good idea in many climates. The general lack of concern about interior/exterior pressure differentials doesn't help. Use stabilized cellulose and there won't be any settling.

So-called reservoir claddings that hold significant quantities of moisture and require back ventilation include brick, stone and cement stucco. Wood, particularly if properly face-sealed, back-sealed and end-grain sealed, does not hold quantities of moisture that are problematic to the building envelope and are generally thin enough in cross-section as to dry to the outside.

Pressure differentials are a function of wind exposure, and the HUD Path Best Practices Guidebook recommends a vented rainscreen only for the most exposed environments, such as coastal zones.

But normal interior stack-effect pressure differentials (i.e. positive pressure in the upper half and negative pressure in the lower half of building height) are unaffected by HRV balanced ventilation systems, which hence still allow moist air exfiltration in the positive pressure zone. On the other hand, an exhaust-only ventilation system, such as I use on all my house designs, creates negative pressure in the entire house and hence eliminates exfiltration and interstitial condensation in cold climates.
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22 May 2015 12:58 PM
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Dana1User is Offline
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22 May 2015 03:41 PM
Actual in-situ testing of high-R cellulose walls (even WITH vented cladding)  with moisture sensors at the sheathing layer tells a different story about the relative safety of that type of wall, unless you're using interior vapor retarders. If that's what you're building, it should work, provided exterior wetting is eliminated.

The moisture content of cellulose causing the mechanical creepage and settling has been well established, modeled, and verified in test assemblies by researchers at the Aalborg University in Denmark over the past 15-20 years. (Notably by Torben Rasmussen.)  I'll accept their data over any builders' or cellulose vendor's assertions, no matter what you've seen in the field.  The ~1.4 lbs settled density of 1-2 feet of horizontal cellulose has no bearing on what it takes to eliminated settling in a wall assembly, which has much more weight bearing on it. Even with proper vapor retarders on the interior, the moisture content of the outer layers of cellulose increases in winter, drawing it's moisture from the outdoor air, releasing it when it warms up.
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23 May 2015 10:35 PM
Actual in-situ testing of high-R cellulose walls (even WITH vented cladding) with moisture sensors at the sheathing layer tells a different story about the relative safety of that type of wall, unless you're using interior vapor retarders.

His "senior" status here notwithstanding, Dana1 seems to not read or misunderstand the reports he relies on as definitive. The "Monitoring of Double-Stud Wall Moisture Conditions in the Northeast" report from Building Science Corp states:

When the walls were disassembled at the conclusion of the experiment, the sheathing and framing showed remarkably little evidence of wetting damage or mold growth. No visible mold growth or evidence of staining or water rundown was found. The damage was limited to some limited grain raise of the interior surface of the oriented strand board at the cellulose wall, and slight corrosion of fasteners and staples.

Based on the data, calculations, and analysis, all three walls should be at high risk of failure; the analytic tools used indicate that these walls should have failed. However, disassembly showed that the walls were essentially undamaged by the monitored moisture exposure. This suggests that the walls, at least in the configurations tested, were far more robust than current analysis tools would indicate. Various theories were proposed on what protective mechanisms might be at work in these assemblies, in particular, the effect of cavity fill insulation. The cellulose walls were likely protected by borate preservatives (which inhibit mold) and the ability to safely store moisture.

it is entirely likely that many double-stud walls are insulated with cellulose with only Class III vapor control and provide fine service. In either case, a Class I vapor retarder (polyethylene) is not recommended, because it completely eliminates inward drying.


Thus the problem was in the assumptions and modeling, and not in the actual field testing. Also, as is often the case, this field test used relatively non-vapor open OSB sheathing (which I never use) and only a class III interior vapor retarder (ordinary latex paint), while I always use a class II vapor retarder primer.

The moisture content of cellulose causing the mechanical creepage and settling has been well established, modeled, and verified in test assemblies by researchers at the Aalborg University in Denmark over the past 15-20 years.

Similarly, Rasmussen uses models which don't reflect real world applications in a house with controlled indoor humidity, cycling his cellulose up to 80% RH. It's interesting that no one else has replicated his findings as far as I'm aware.

The ~1.4 lbs settled density of 1-2 feet of horizontal cellulose has no bearing on what it takes to eliminated settling in a wall assembly, which has much more weight bearing on it.

In fact, the dense-pack cellulose in walls experiences very little stack weight because expansion and friction against the containing surfaces and framing prevents the free-column effect that Dana1 imagines inside a wall cavity. Anyone who's opened a wall with dense-pack knows that one can remove the lower insulation and the upper will remain in place, defying gravity, until it's clawed out.

Even with proper vapor retarders on the interior, the moisture content of the outer layers of cellulose increases in winter, drawing it's moisture from the outdoor air, releasing it when it warms up.

As the Building Science report makes clear, all the moisture accumulated in the cellulose double-stud wall was from the interior. Sheathing (or not), taped housewrap, and properly-installed cladding isolate the insulation from the exterior air conditions. A vented rainscreen only brings exterior ambient conditions closer to the insulation layer.  And, using a low-perm sheathing material reduces the drying potential to the outside. The rule of thumb I've used for more than 30 years is that, in a cold climate house, the outer "skin" should be five times as vapor permeable as the interior "skin".

If you understand the moisture mechanics, this system works as long as interior moisture is controlled - if it's not, then any envelope system will fail.

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27 May 2015 02:08 PM
Moisture content levels in excess of 20% beyond April may not be a problem in the short term, but it's a dubious proposition that it's acceptable for the long term. Ueno postulated that the borate fire retardents were was a primary mold inhibitor in the cellulose wall (p.64, pdf pagination). He also recommending class-II vapor retarders or variable vapor retarders on the interior. (P63, in PDF pagination) to reduce the sensitivity of the sheathing to moisture levels.

Elsewhere (couldn't find it quickly in a document search) he indicated that it it would be take interior RH below 25% in winter to limit the moisture uptake to levels to stay in the safe zone. While that's easy to do with ventilation, but it is below the 30-50% RH human-healthy range recommended by health professionals, and below what many people prefer. Yes you can do it with ventilation, but there's no guarantee that over the next 100 years every occupant would (or should) ventilate to that level.

Vented cladding such as vinyl siding or rainscreened siding does not reduce drying rates of the sheathing, and provides a powerful capillary break between the siding & sheathing from direct wetting on the exterior. I'm not sure what the "...rainscreen only brings exterior ambient conditions closer to the insulation layer" argument means. The dew point of the air in the rainscreen cavity tracks that of the outdoor air, but the rainscreen all but eliminates direct wetting of the structural sheathing. But the siding also limits direct wind or sun drying. If anything the rainscreen isolates the insulation layer from the outdoor ambient conditions rather than bringing it closer.

The vapor permeance of 1x plank sheathing is about 1-perm when dry, less than 2 perms when wet , which is comparable to half-inch OSB. Using the 1:5 rule of thumb means that your interior vapor retarders are then 0.4 perms or less? (In which case it works.) Half-perm paint or MemBrain is not a huge cost adder, and reduces the moisture drives from the interior by about an order of magnitude, in which case even 50% RH interiors are not a very big problem for the wall assemblies (though more so with MemBrain than half-perm paint, if it's truly maintained at higher than 50%.)

The friction settling resistance argument for dense-pack works for 2x6 or smaller framing, less so for double-studwalls and Larsen trusses, especially over long term moisture cycling. The cold outer layers of cellulose will still see fairly substantial moisture content levels with only 5 perm paint as the interior vapor retarder, and in walls where the sheathing is the siding, and experiences direct wetting of the exterior it could be quite high, even exceeding Rasmussen's 80%.

(edited to add)

It's pretty clear that even in 2x4 framing cavities the 1.4lbs settled density in attics is nowhere NEAR dense enough to keep it from settling in walls, which is why it's a completely irrelevant number for purposes of discussion of what it takes to keep cellulose from settling in Larsen truss or double studwall assemblies.
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27 May 2015 02:50 PM
The vapor permeance of 1x plank sheathing is about 1-perm when dry, less than 2 perms when wet


Softwood lap siding has a vapor permeance of between 10 and 35 - with solid-color latex stain on both sides, about 5 perm.

A 1 perm interior vapor retarder, as required by the International Residential Code (which is the only such code to reflect the latest understandings of building science), coupled with an exterior WRB at least equivalent to #15 felt (~5 perm), back-stained wood siding, and extremely hygroscopic (moisture redistributing and buffering) insulation such as cellulose with borates (for insect and fungal, as well as fire, protection) provides a nearly fail-proof envelope system.

Those who truly understand moisture and energy dynamics appreciate this.

In all houses, exterior and interior moisture control is a necessity, but no other superinsulated building envelope allows as much drying potential in both directions, diurnally and seasonally.

"Robert's presentation on moisture mechanics was the best presentation I have seen on the subject. I would highly recommend this workshop to all builders, architects and building trades people. I believe the issue of moisture as it relates to residential (and commercial) construction is one of the most important pieces of building science a builder today should have a strong working knowledge of." - Jay Walsh, Energy Analyst, Energy Star Homes and LEED-H Rater, Center for Ecological Technology
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27 May 2015 03:03 PM
"The Influence of Low-Permeance Vapor Barriers on Roof and Wall Performance", Research Report – 1101, 25 March 2011, John Straube, © 2011 Building Science Press:

"The preoccupation of codes and manufacturer’s literature with vapor barriers is not supported by the small amount of diffusion wetting that can generally occur… In some cases, a low-permeance vapor barrier may be called for, but in many practical high-performance enclosures, none is needed, and eliminating them will actually improve performance by encouraging drying and avoiding solar-driven diffusion wetting."
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