We have been designing a house for about two years. After submitting bid packages we have two ICF contractors that we find to be excellent; easy to work with, good refernces, certified and recommended by the ICF manufacturer. One uses vertical icfs one uses blocks.

I have read through all the posts on this site and seen a few references to vertical icfs, but they don't seem very popular. Like I said before, we would be happy to go with either contractor.

So what's the deal, is there something I am missing on the vertical ICF? Why do the pros on this site prefer blocks? I have very limited ability to actually evaluate one ICF versus the other. Just want to make sure we have all the facts before we make a decision.

Well first off being comfortable with the ICF builder or supplier is the most important. Next its your research that tells the tale between the systems. Go see projects that both have done and ask the customers what the end results were and how they feel after the fact. As you stated" vertical ICF systems don't seem popular" thats because there realy is only one out there thats shows its face and 99% off everybody posting here are using blocks and don't really know much about vertical systems. I believe the vertical system you are referring too is more expensive and has attachment points twice as far appart as blocks and maybe metal attachment points unless you pay even more for poly. Look at what the industry is using and follow suit. Nobody here wants to bash any specific brand because its still better than stick built.

i think you should pick an installer and then use the block he likes. he will have experience with that block and that will save you his learning curve.

Bottom line as a homeowner you are unlikely to notice any difference due to the brand of icf or the way it is assembled.

We used the vertical icf by TF systems. Its a good product thats a little more pricey than other icfs. One thing  I would improve is the corner attachments. Compared to some of the better blocks they are a little lite. They have introduced a new reinforced corner, but I have not used it.

We used vertical because it is the simplest system for our crews who were previously trained on traditional forms. One side of the form can remain open during installation which gives us the following benefits: steel man can place and tie all reinforcement at once. sparkys can run conduit and tie to bars. engineer can visually inspect all the work before the other side is put on. The way we schedule crews it is has a slight speed advantage (carpenters erect outside form, steel man & sparkys do their work, inspections, carpenters erect inside of form, masons pour the wall)

This works for us because we are using typically industrial/commercial practices in a luxury home setting. And because we are fully integrated. We don't hire subs so if I need one sparky for a day its not a problem.  Others will question why we are using these techniques when most run electrical after the walls are up and steel doesn't have to be tied if it is run in hangers that come standard in most block icfs.

We designed our system of building around the needs and requirements of our customers. Who have designers and Architects and Project managers and Inspectors and Engineers, and Agents, etc, etc...  Vertical icfs were selected because they support our system of building. Your potential subs most likely went through the same process to select their icf system.

Let me tell you, as a homeowner, why we went with the block we did.  Two things -- we picked the pro and we picked the block he had experience with.  We had a choice of 4 ICF systems, by the way.  We went with block because we wanted to be in the end of the pool where all the other kids were playing.  It's lonely in the deep end with only 1 or 2 others.

We wanted to build the most conventional way of doing an unconventional building process, so if we needed a lifesaver along the way, it would be easy to get a lifeline (and answers) quickly. 

Your mileage may vary.  Best of luck -- you will love your ICF home!

Going with whatever ICF your builder is use to using is great advice. I have met the owner of TF and now use it on every project unless the owner insists on block. The reason no one else is vertical is because TF owns the patients. There have been several attempts by the big guys to buy out TF but apparently the price wasn't right (just guessing on the price thing). On my last 2 projects TF was actually cheaper than the block I use. Every now and then I price both ways because if the block would be considerably cheaper, I would use it. IMO it is the easiest to install. The only down fall is the corners, and it really is not a big deal because the time it takes to brace the corners is made up by less bracing in the rest of the walls. But the most important thing is to use.

Pricing on the TF system comes out the same as for block ICF. Panels are 12" wide, you have flanges ever 12" then for screwing drywall, etc. into. I hear the corner bracing is a little more work on the TF - but look at their bracing details, it looks pretty darn easy to me. When I build, it will be with TF for the basement and either TF or OSB Sips for the main floor. Oh - TF uses denser EPS foam than the block guys too. Why do the block guys seem to not like it? For the same reasons everything is always so slow to change in construction - if they haven't used it, then it must not be as good, right???

richntiff, not to take this thread in a different direction, but I have asked in the past how one using the TF system places the corner bar in place once the outside is all up, as well as all of the horizontal bar, it would appear that you would have to put 2 or 3 lengths in once the wall is halfway built down one side and then once it is completed slide the rest in place, I still can't figure out the corner bar yet though, (that is actually not true, I know how I would do it and it would seem like a time consuming pain in the butt) but I would like to know how you do it keeping in mind a proper lap splice.
Also if working on a high rise can you safely work from the inside and does everything stay in place 6 or 7 stories up while you double up?
Being a block guy, I am not saying that I DON'T like it, haven't tried it yet, just curious about those questions.
Paul Stevens

I put the corner bar in when I set the corner. I also set the bar horizontal and vertacle as I build. If I forgot a bar somewhere I will simply slide up a panel and slide it in. If you forget a corner bar I slide the panel up next to the corner and simply slide it in and tie it off. It is a lot simpler than every body who has not worked with it makes it sound. I have built up 4 stories and built the 4th floor just like the 1st floor. Every level gets built just like the previous. Maybe A TF rep should start posting replys?

This is my first post on this site so I don't know how much weight my opinion will hold, but over the past 5 years, I've built 1 basement and 1 foundation for others, and 1 entire home out of the verticle system for myself with excellent results. I've been carpentering for about 20 years with about half of that on the union or commercial side. I researched many ICF system before starting my first job. I found that the simplicity of the Verticle or TFsystem was its strongest selling point. With this simplicity comes versatility - there are only 4 components.
The key is finding the right contractor and the system they are most comfortable. For the homeowner, all the systems offer basically the same insulation value once the pour is finished. The difference is the amount of attachments - for interior and exterior finishes - and the finished product - how strait, flat, and clean the walls are when done. The verticle system fits all these requirements quite well. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the lack of response from one system over another is the fact that the verticle system is a relative new comer to the ICF market and is just 1 voice in 100's - Even at that, the power of design is scary for those companies that have invested so much time and energy in block systems. Over time, I look for this system or similar systems to take over. Experience has shown that simplicity in design is better!
I can't believe that TFsystems doesn't help sponsor this site. Maybe there being different is too much of a threat to all other ICF's.

Vance Woods - Illinois builder

Those CMU guys must love you. stacking blocks has been around for thousands of years (pyramids anyone?) its just that now they weigh ALOT LESS!! Anyone with experience using vertical ICFs knows that they will indeed give you the same insulating value and can be used successfully to build all sorts of projects, what it comes down to what does the contractor doing the installation prefer. It just seems to be that most ICf contractors that have used both prefer the "stacking" method (just my humble opinion from 1st hand knowledge), not to say that verticals won't suffice.

I'm not really looking to start a war here but I respectfully question the following statement in a previous post to this thread
"It just seems to be that most ICF contractors that have used both prefer the "stacking" method" It seemes to me that the opposite may be true, and that most contractors who have used both actually prefer the "vertical" system. TDBuilder sounds like a pretty qualified "ICF Guy", and he has made statements in several of his posts that support this theory. Vermarj certainly sounds like a knowledgeable construction professional with no axe to grind, and he makes a great case for TF in a previous post on this thread. Richntiff appears to have done his homework, and plans to use TF in connection with his upcoming project. And, Vance Woods sounds to me like he's just "telling it like he sees it" in his post. I only remember one truly negative post about TF, and that post was successfully rebutted, and I don't believe that the author has been heard from on this forum since then. There have been comments in connection with the corner bracing required by the TF System but I haven't seen many, photos of actual ICF projects where there wasn't some corner bracing, and less bracing is required for the "straight" runs with TF. Many of the other strong points of the TF system have been mentioned in previous posts to this forum, and, of course, anyone who's interested can visit www.tfsystem,com for "The rest of the story"

Ok, so I am associated with a firm that is a distributor of the TF ICF System (I've clarified that fact on virtually every post that I've made on this forum, and have followed up by stating that the TF corporate office will forward inquiries in our area to us for follow up, when appropriate.

In closing this post I want to make it clear that I'm not "knocking blocks".

No need for hand to hand combat :) As you can see from my post I did not knock verticals, only game my observances from contractors I have talked to in regards to the the claim: "Over time, I look for this system or similar systems to take over"

As far as the statement: "I can't believe that TFsystems doesn't help sponsor this site. Maybe there being different is too much of a threat to all other ICF's." I don't think that Greenbuildingtalk.com management would turn away adverstising revenue if TF did want to advertise on the site.

Once again to reiterate, use the system your builder is comfortable with.
As far as over time will vertical take over? Who knows but once there patient runs out we will find out. FYI they started as a block and converted to vertical after a few years. With regards to them advertising, this is something that always puzzled me that they have almost no advertising to speak of and seem to rely mostly on word of mouth. With that said it seems to be working for them.
Once again Dr Bob, use what ever system your builder is comfortable with but I would recommend staying ICF even with low lumber prices, the result is astonishing. IMO. Remeber the ICF is just the start of the building envelope.
I am actually going out one night this week and shooting a couple of homes I built with the thermal imaging camera to show customers.

I used Logix ICF blocks with great success... see the blog I wrote with pictures/details below. I document the steps to pour/setup footings, place blocks, install bracing and do the pour as well as damp-proofing.

http://www.icfbasement.org/

I would like to hear which ICF Bob went with and how he likes his ICF home.

Bets anyone? we can collect next year at WOC and after the economy picks back up ;) !!! I'd normally give at least 75-25 odds on "block ICF", but after all of our expert opinions to select the most reputable contractor and go with what ever system he chooses, It is kind of a crap shoot.

Anyone?

HaHaHaHaHA

Man! you see those sips guys going toe to toe? (see thresd: sip site superviser) I'm glad that we are a little more cordial on the ICF threads! hahahaha Go ICFs!! (with sips or concrete roofs)!!!

I agree its great that everybody can express there opinion and not get bashed. I like the vertical but as long as its ICF. In the end the systems are all pretty close but going ICF is by far IMO the best way--------The only way to build now.

Everyone is mentioning TF system but what about the Hobbs Building System. It goes up in about half the time as the blocks (i've seen a video where one Hobbs installer did the same amount of wall as the TWO block installers), and it uses 40% less concrete.