jerry5453
New Member
Posts:5
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| 04 Aug 2007 02:03 PM |
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I'm contemplating building a super-insulated home either in SIP or ICF.
Has anyone seen more insulation added to ICFs other than adding a stud wall to the interior?
Adding extra foam either interior or exterior with adhesive and maybe a 2x2 screwed to the blocks of
the ICF forms sounds doable, but I've never heard of anyone doing it and don't know how it would be
received code wise.
Any info would be helpful.
Thanks,
Jerry
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 04 Aug 2007 02:28 PM |
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Posted By jerry5453 on 08/04/2007 2:03 PM
I'm contemplating building a super-insulated home either in SIP or ICF.
Has anyone seen more insulation added to ICFs other than adding a stud wall to the interior You have the right idea! I've always thought about using steel framing on the inside with R-15 high density fiberglass batts. Haven't had the chance yet. I do have 2 SIP projects going where the owners decided on Super Insulating. They are both using 10.25" R-38 SIPS for their walls. They will be saving copious amounts of $$$ on their heating bills! Good Luck! |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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slenzen
Basic Member
Posts:434
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| 04 Aug 2007 02:28 PM |
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I saw quadlock has a block with over 4" of foam on the outside and 2 on the inside |
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icfblocks
Basic Member
Posts:202
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| 04 Aug 2007 03:09 PM |
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Both QuadLock and IntegraSpec have thicker panels available for use in with there systems. IntegraSpec offers the thicker panel in Alaska I know. |
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| Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 05 Aug 2007 12:17 AM |
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Ok....I thought using ICF WAS super-insulating your house to begin with! Isn't it 'supposed ' to be somewhere around R- 35...??? |
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PatrickT
Basic Member
Posts:157
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| 05 Aug 2007 06:26 PM |
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slenzen,
Yes Quad does have a varity of foam thinkness. Added foam is best on the outside. This is to enhance the thermal mass effect. We are gluing 2" extra foam on our Fox blox and they have 2 5/8" foam on both sides. Some will say way overkill....
Patrick T. |
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jerry5453
New Member
Posts:5
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| 06 Aug 2007 06:53 AM |
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OK, this is great!
I didn't know about the Quad-Lock, that looks excellent.
The one ICF contractor I talked to uses Integra-Spec, and I've asked this specific question before, so he doesn't know about them - I'll look into it.
About whether ICF's are "Superinsulated" or not question, I'm sure the experts here can explain better, but my novice view is this - a static
view of them gives a general range of R20-25 depending on the amount of foam. That's an adding up of the material (foam + concrete)
R values. What they do in real world given the thermal mass is somewhat disputed, and out of my expertise. But you start with a true R20-25
because there is a lot less possible air leaks and thermal bridging then stick built.
And I don't know what the arbitrary line is that defines "Superinsulated", but to me its around a minimum R40 on all walls and ceilings.
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jerry5453
New Member
Posts:5
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| 06 Aug 2007 07:01 AM |
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Patrick T.
Aha! I knew someone would be out there adding extra insulation!
A couple of questions:
What's your exterior finish and how are you applying it? Extra long screws/nails or nailers or ?
Are you DIY'ing or using a contractor, and have you found any examples for how your doing it?
Jerry
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jerry5453
New Member
Posts:5
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| 06 Aug 2007 07:04 AM |
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PanelCrafters,
Which SIPs are they using?
Thanks
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woulfcc
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 06 Aug 2007 08:33 AM |
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A real wold reminder.
Do you know that 1sq.' of window = 30 to 40 SQ. ' of wall on heat loss!
Sorry man walls are NOT the area to be looking at.
Look at an R 40 roof. Stop all air infiltration.
Wall are only about 26% of your heat loss. So how can you save 50% on your heating with a What ever R wall? |
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| Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
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PatrickT
Basic Member
Posts:157
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| 06 Aug 2007 09:03 AM |
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Jerry,
We will be using stucco and foam trim around windows. I did a search for EFIS products. There you will find sheet foam, screws, bace coat/fiberglass mesh and top coat stucco. The screws come with plastic washers and are made just for attaching foam. Many will say it's not worth it but the material cost are about $0.37 for sq-ft for an additional 2"/ R-9, depending on your foam. I talked to a local EFIS installer. They charge $3 and sq-ft for the base coat and stucco. The material is about $1.30 /sq-ft. He said on cases where foam is applied they use a 2'x4' sheet. I would think going with a 4'x8' sheet makes more sence myself.
I have a GC but I'm very involved. When do you start your project? I can E-mail you photos of our all concrete home in progress if that would intrest you. PM me
Patrick T. |
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Cattail Bill
Basic Member
Posts:206
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| 06 Aug 2007 09:47 AM |
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I have to agree with woulf on this one look at where the real loss is. than super insulate not the wall that is already better than the rest of the structure, put your money into the windows the roof, and the doors, and by the way I have seen several post on insulated concrete roofs I will be doing one of those as soon as possible that looks like a great way to help super insulate a home. To bad we don't have transparent ICF block for windows. |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 06 Aug 2007 10:33 AM |
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Posted By jerry5453 on 08/06/2007 7:04 AM
PanelCrafters,
Which SIPs are they using?
They are using Enercept SIPS. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 06 Aug 2007 04:02 PM |
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Posted By woulfcc on 08/06/2007 8:33 AM
A real wold reminder.
Do you know that 1sq.' of window = 30 to 40 SQ. ' of wall on heat loss! Real World? Ok. Standard Double Pane Window about U-Value 0.5 R-19 Stud Framed Wall(Whole Wall would be less, but I'll use R-19) Delta-T in Cold Area 80° 1 sqft Window Heat Loss = 40 BTU/hr 1 sqft Wall Heat Loss = 4.21 Btu/hr 40 / 4.21 = 9.5 sqft of Wall
Sorry man walls are NOT the area to be looking at.
Look at an R 40 roof. Stop all air infiltration. Sure they are. Where do you think that most of the air infiltration comes from? That's why ICF's, SIPS & Spray Foam are so effective. Also remember that if you use insulating drapes/shades, whatever, you can reduce your heat loss at night by maybe 80% through those windows.
Wall are only about 26% of your heat loss. So how can you save 50% on your heating with a What ever R wall? Well you said part of it: Reducing Air Infiltration, and the rest is R-Value. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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slenzen
Basic Member
Posts:434
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| 06 Aug 2007 07:00 PM |
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Catttail, are you building the concrete roof home in MN? I'm gathering info on a build on Lake Minnetonka. |
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jerry5453
New Member
Posts:5
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| 07 Aug 2007 07:47 AM |
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Hi Patrick,
I'm in the - have ground, working with architect stage. I'm in central Indiana. Where are you building?
My desire is for a brick exterior, but we'll see what the costs are, and that pretty much limits exterior foam.
Adding interior foam would be a lot easier. And I'll have to look it up again, and I think you may be right, that it would be more useful
in this climate for it to be on the exterior and not interior.
I still haven't totally ruled out SIPs where adding foam is easy, but I do like the concept of concrete here where we have the occaisional
tornado.
Trade offs abound ....
EFIS is used mostly in commercial and some high-end homes around here. It would make adding exterior foam a lot easier though.
I'll talk to the GC's about it when I've got plans in hand.
I'd like to see some photos. When you say 'all concrete' are you doing a concrete roof also?
Jerry
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PatrickT
Basic Member
Posts:157
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| 07 Aug 2007 09:06 AM |
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Jerry
I'm in Bloomington Indiana. Where in Central IN are you? Yes, we will have a concrete roof as well.
As far as the foam on the inside or outside, the ORNL energy studies show the best is all the foam on the outside and all the concrete on the inside. This is for conditions where thermal mass has the best benifit. Indiana is not such a good thermal mass benifit area due to minimal temp swings in any given day. By adding my 2" of additional foam to the outside, I will lean in that direction. The foam on the inside has some good benifits as well. It acts as a buffer to reduce or eliminate condisation/mold. I have read where some had all the concrete on the inside and they had lot's of water vapor issues.
Both SIPs and ICF have a good 'whole wall' R-value. Stud walls made of 2x6 have a R-19 at the point of the pink stuff. But taking in to consideration all the studs, the whole wall R-rating drops dramatically. The ICF really shines through with regards to air infiltration.
Patrick T |
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Cattail Bill
Basic Member
Posts:206
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| 07 Aug 2007 09:30 AM |
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Slenzen
Yes I am going to try but I also build in the Dakotas and Iowa, I will be looking for a customer who wants to try this program as it will be a learning experiance, but I do have some friends in the game that have done this and am sure that I can get good advice from them, I know that pcoughlin has done this out in oregon so he will tell me what the factory guy will not,or does not know about the real world. |
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PatrickT
Basic Member
Posts:157
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| 07 Aug 2007 07:46 PM |
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woulfcc,
No doubt, heat rises and roof insulation is key. But don't get to lost in stats. Sure on a one story home, roof R-..will out weigh wall R-.. via percentages. But move to a 3 story home and walls can take over. It's all in what your building. Add radient heating where you have insulation between floors and it keeps tipping towords the walls. All insulation is good. Windows are one of the bigest heat losses. Not that I'm reccomending baning windows.........
Patrick T. |
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