Reward, Amvic, Logix, IntegraSpec or Nudura which ICF
Last Post 05 Jul 2013 04:16 PM by Roger R. 62 Replies.
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Marc&KemUser is Offline
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11 Sep 2008 07:03 PM
Now we have the decision of which ICF to go with. I know there are many representatives of their product out there. Please, I am not trying to start an ICF battle based on bashing. I hope you can represent your product by facts such as block density, structural support (to prevent waves in the wall), locking design, wall blowout failure, cost and other facts based on data not hear say. Some people think that controversy bring knowlege to the top. I can agree if it's based on facts/data not emotion.
My choices are: Reward, Amvic, Logix, IntegraSpec or Nudura.
I look forward to your input and respect the experience you can provide.
I can tell you Reward Wall Systems was recommended.

Thanks,

Marc and Kemella
Athens, TN
 


wesUser is Offline
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11 Sep 2008 07:28 PM
I have used Logix since their creation as a company. And I have also used several other brands over the years, including a couple others that you mention. While these forms are all good products, I have always come back to the Logix. The combination of strength, ease of use, and consist quality can't be beat.  Also, they would ship to you from their Johnson City TN plant, which should keep your freight costs down.



Wes Shelby
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Murray KY
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ICFconstructionUser is Offline
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11 Sep 2008 07:39 PM
Can't go wrong with any of those, let your ICF contractor decide. Whatever they are most comfortable with is what they should use.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
Paul StevensUser is Offline
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11 Sep 2008 08:31 PM
I agree with ICFconstruction, if you are going to sub out your ICf install, let the contractor decide.
If you are going to tackle the install yourself, you will want to answer these questions, which company has a distributor close to you, can they provide tech. support, do they have enough bracing to handle your job, can they help with your permits, answering any questions the building dept. may have, if you need 3 more blocks do they have a warehouse close so that they can run them over in a pick-up or will you need to pay big freight charges?
I install Logix and Nudura and are very happy with both blocks. Reward and Amvic appear to be very similar to Logix and have heard good things about them as well, but I don't know much about Integraspec.
This topic has come up before and like those times you will get a different answer from everyone you ask. Try contacting a local redi-mix company and ask for a few names of the local ICF installers and ask them. You will probably get the best advice form those guys, they are probably teamed up with the guy who provides the best service to them. Thats the one I would go for.
Hope this helps some.
Paul Stevens


TLC-ICFUser is Offline
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11 Sep 2008 11:02 PM
We are in Cookeville, can drop ship Logix to your jobsite. Let me know if I can help.


Raider BillUser is Offline
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12 Sep 2008 09:22 AM

I am building in Englewood TN. Used amvic. If you want to see the house let me know. All ICF work is done.

 



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12 Sep 2008 11:18 AM
M & K in Athens, congrats on the icf building. ICF's in general perform like the installers putting them together. LOGIX is the choice we have made over other products in the 10 years building and installing with alot of other product we tried. Application and installation per manufacturer recommendations are key. Tech support, if your doing the work, is something to really consider. As with many things it is said, application, application...


FarmboyUser is Offline
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12 Sep 2008 06:46 PM

M & K,
   Is the ICF work being contracted out or are you Doing It Yourself (DIY)?  Then follow the advice from ICF Constr'n and Paul Stevens.

   Here's an extensive ICF comparison chart: http://www.icfmag.com/documents/ICF_COMP_CHART/08_ind_comp_chart.pdf

Our story.  We will erect the ICF walls of our upcoming home ourselves and will use Logix for several reasons: 
     1.  Close to us.  Block is made just about 40 miles from our home site.
     2.  Foam is 2-3/4" thick which gives us a higher R-value, total of 5.5" of foam.
     3.  Concrete is 6.25" thick, so a bit more strength.  Think Kansas tornados.
     4.  I've seen several homes built with it during the construction phase and it is sturdy.
     5.  Attended distributor training and have helped a friend using it for his country home.
     6.  Have good working relationship with the distributor and they can provide all the bracing, accessories and tech support we will need.

Other Block We Considered. 
  Eco-Block (2.5" foam, 6" concrete).   Helped stack some block at a residence.  Only problem for me is that you have to assemble the block on site.  Advantage is that the block ships easier, but you need to ensure the ties are snapped in correctly and you have sufficient quantity. 

Amvic.  Seems to be a well received block and available locally.

Buildblock.  Heard good comments about it.  Used on an Extreme Home Makeover project.

IF you are DIY, might check out Fox Block (2-5/8" foam, 6" concrete).  They are reasonably priced and are made and sold out of Omaha.  I think the first truckload load is shipped free or used to be.      

Reward Block (2.5" foam, 6" concrete).  My wife and I helped construct the foundation and exterior walls for a home in Greensburg earlier this year.  They used Reward Block which seemed fairly forgiving given that no one had much experience with ICF at all.  Because we had attended the one day course a week or two before made us the "experts", but we got it done.  Reward block is reversible which makes stacking a bit less complex.  Just grab any corner block and use it.  With Logix we will have to make sure we have it right side up.

Hope this might help you decide.  Good luck,  Dave



woulfccUser is Offline
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12 Sep 2008 07:10 PM

The real question is are you the installer?

ALL the blocks in the right hand will work. (yes ,I said that)

All the blocks in new hands will have some problems.

You only get 1 chance to get your home right so pick your help , and let them pick the block.

This is true all over the icf product lines ,all can be put up wrong and have problems. 
 They also in the hands of an experienced user can look and work just fine.
So are you the installer?



Changing How the World BUILDS!
Green , Done , Easy
Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin
Marc&KemUser is Offline
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13 Sep 2008 09:29 AM

If we decide to go with an installer I agree it would be best to:

1. Choose someone with experience.
2. Let the installer choose the block
3. Talk with customers
4. Use an architech/Engr with ICF experience

After talking with you guys it seems like ICF's are kinda like purchasing a car. Today there are many good MFG's and they all have a decent product. But if I were to make one myself or have one made. I would want someone with experience, support and provide training with an onsite Rep.
I feel more comfortable with a block that has strips every 6" Vs every 8". also the thicker foam is good if the density is there. I have not seen density over 1.5
I want to find some training. I think this will convince me whether to do it myself or hire someone.
I have come down to 3 block manufactures Logix, Reward and Amvic.
Dave , thanks for the comparison chart. Wow! that is a great tool.
Paul, ICFman, Wes, TLC-ICF, farmboy, Raider Bill, Woulfcc & ICF Construction, I just want to say thanks! I feel like I have gotten some good unbiased info. Kinda of like the peace of mind you get from talking to a "friend" in the business.
Now I need to find a training class in this part of the country.

Marc & Kemella
Athens, Tn



renangleUser is Offline
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13 Sep 2008 09:31 AM
M & K,

Here are my thoughts regarding the block in question:

Amvic - Ties are every 6" o.c., making it one of the strongest blocks on the market. They are reversible as well which takes a lot of guess work out of the build, especially with regards to coners. They have a manufacturing plant outside of Charlotte, so frieght shouldn't be too bad.

Logix - Ties are every 8" o.c., which probably isn't a big deal but it is something I would consider, especially if price isn't any different. They are not reversible, so there is more to take into account when building.

Reward - Ties are every 6" o.c. and they are reversible, so they compliment Amvic quite well. Also, from what I have read/heard they have developed a new corner which is one of the strongest being made today.

Nudura - Ties are every 8" o.c., so they go in the Logix category. Also, I have heard when unhinging them, there can be a slight bow in the block (also because of their length) which must be looked at when building. Their ties when stacking are extremely tight which is a good thing, but if you have to unhook them because of some error before pouring it is difficult.

IntegraSpec - I don't know enough about them to give you a great opinion.

At the end of the day, I believe it comes down to service. If you have a contractor that is comfortable with one because of experience, go with what they recommend. Another very important factor also is bracing. Many distributors offer brace rental or usage if you build using their block so out of the ones you mentioned if only one has bracing available, I would go with them.


SoCalScottUser is Offline
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19 Sep 2008 01:29 AM
M & K

The three forms youare looking at all perform the same way ( the differneces between these three forms are more or less aesthetic). If installed PROPERLY they will all give you straight plumb walls w/o blowouts. That is where service comes in. If you go with an installer - go with your four steps. If you decide to DIY, make sure you have local representation to consult with you during the process. make sure your ICF source has ICF bracing available for you to rent. Do NOT try to brace/scaffold with lumber.

Your local distributor should have inventory so that you do not have to worry about haveing extra forms or running short without a readily available supply.

So far sounds like you are on the right track!




wesUser is Offline
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19 Sep 2008 07:04 AM
SoCalScott,
I have to disagree with you on your statement about not using lumber scaffolding/bracing.
We started doing ICF walls before bracing systems were born, and wood was the only game in town. The system we use is simple, easy to use, and over 90% recycled into the project construction process. And when done properly, just as foolproof as the modern systems. I suppose if all we did were the ICF systems, I would be more inclined to the bracing systems, but considering that we are usually involved in the entire construction process, I cannot justify spending multiple thousands of dollars for a system that would not pay for itself during its usable life.


Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net
SoCalScottUser is Offline
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19 Sep 2008 08:03 PM
Wes -

Understood, that part of my comment was for the DIY scenario, where the home owner would rent the bracing/scaffold system their project. If they were to hire a subcontractor, and the sub has sucessful experience using a lumber system, by all means go with what has worked. But on a one time basis for the unexperienced installer they are much more likely to get it done right by using the ICF bracing system.

Out here, they normally rent for $10 per set per "week" (with some latitude for what a week is). So on a typical project the cost for rental bracing would run $300 to $600, to cover 150 and 300 linel feet of wall, respectively. All depends on local distributor/availability.

Scott



Buddy NewberryUser is Offline
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06 Oct 2008 09:32 AM

There seem to be a lot of individuals in the dark when it comes to IntegraSpec ICF. I would like to shed some light on this unique ICF Wallsystem.

In my opinion, after having used IntegraSpec exclusively for five years in custom home construction, it is the most versatile and user friendly ICF on the market today. It is an independant panel system which makes meeting specific wall height requirements and constructing RSO's a breeze. IntegraSpec is specified to have a 10' pour height as apposed to the 3' to 4' pour heights of other ICF's. The tallest pour I have done is 14' with a 6" concrete core cavity in one shot and one pass around the house. This system is completely flippable and reversible which makes installation quick and easy, there is no up or down, no right or left. There is absolutely no form compaction and no form lift, which means no gluing forms together, no tying them down, and no guessing, exact measurments for RSO's can be used. IntegraSpec has anti-compaction channels that negate form compaction and the webs lock together which in turn negates form lift. In combination, the anti-compaction channels and inter-locking webs create a spine throughout the wallsystem subsequently making the forms easier to plum and straighten during pours.
The furring strips are every 8" on center and are 1 5/8 wide, these inserts are also made out of HIPS plastic and not polypropolene, which provides a better mechanical bond with the EPS, a pull test of 156 pounds per sq. inch and results in superior strength and taller pour heights.
IntegraSpec has a patented H-clip which allows it to accomplish something that no other ICF's in the industry can obtain. This H-clip allows you to gang together multiple webs to achieve any concrete core thickness. The thickest wall I have poured was 24 inches and 8 ft tall, I was able to pour this wall in one shot, I was apprehensive at first, but couldn't believe the results.
As well, IntegraSpec's IntegraBuck system is the insulated solution to window insulation and bucking around your RSO's. It is cheaper per lineal foot than PT wood, it insulates and has a furring strip within it to provide for window installation and jamb extensions. As well, in using this bucking system the wallsystem is a one material substrate for stucco applications.
Finally, IntegraSpec has dovetail grooves on the inside face of their panels which creates a mechanical bond with the concrete as it cures and contracts. This in turn provides a superior surface for stucco or EIFs applications which awards IntegraSpec and Nudura (which have dovetails as well) extended warranties from many of the EIFs manufacturers.
When using ICF's I always look at the cost of the blocks, IntegraSpec is not among the cheapest but in looking at how this ICF performs and the versatility of the product I consider these forms to be priceless. Installed cost is more important in the end, and with a flippable and reversible system that pours 10 ft, I save a lot of money in the installation process. It is very easy to have a good nights sleep when you feel confident and comfortable with the buidling system that you are using.
Check out www.integraspec.com, it is quite an informative site with slideshows of feature projects and product brochures.

I hope this helps,

Buddy Newberry,



renangleUser is Offline
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06 Oct 2008 10:58 AM
Buddy, welcome to the forum.

I am curious of the statment regarding the HIPS plastic is stronger than polypropolene? A quick search from me found that the Amvic pull-out strength of 198 lbs./sq. in. where IntegraSpec is at 156 lbs./sq. in. Also, when pouring Amvic is listed with the strongest strength test at 865 lbs./sq.ft.

Also, one thing people like about the polypropolene is that its recycled material in most cases, I am unaware if the same can be said of the HIPS plactic. We have used a put together form before as an organization, but after studying all ICF companies, we went with a flat panel wall system as it was more efficient building material. Also, if Marc and Kem are going to build their house themselves, I would think a put together system may take more time. Again, depends on what their contractor recommends.

renangle


ErVikingoUser is Offline
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06 Oct 2008 04:18 PM
What about Quad Lock?


John ClemUser is Offline
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06 Oct 2008 06:42 PM
Hi Marc & Kem,
I do not know if you have made a choice yet, but thought I would add my two cents. By the way, I am a Logix distributor.
Logix is a very strong block and easy to work with. I do not believe the 8" vs 6" spacing is an issue. Logix does have a special web design incorporated into the outside corners. Gives extra attachment area. I do not know how the other blocks address this issue.
Also, 41% of Logix blocks (by weight) are completely recycled.
John


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Paul StevensUser is Offline
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06 Oct 2008 07:45 PM
Buddy Newberry, don't take this the wrong way, but are you either an Integra spec rep or owner, you certainly sound like one? It is great to be passionate about your block, I certainly am.But please clarify a statement you made about Integraspec having a specified pour height of 10' and other ICF's of 3-4'. Pouring concrete to a specified height has nothing to do with which ICF you pour, if you check the building codes they will tell you that you shouldn't pour more than 4 feet every hour whether it be in an ICf wall or conventional panel walls. I have poured walls 16' high as well in Nudura, Logix, and Arxx if you are experienced and confident in the block you are using then pouring that height isn't a big deal.
Paul Stevens


Aaron McKinneyUser is Offline
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06 Oct 2008 08:02 PM
I haven't seen anyone mention build block yet.


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