Mark Fleming
 Basic Member
 Posts:109
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| 16 Oct 2008 02:40 PM |
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I'd also like to thank everybody for the year's of advice I got from this forum, and I do mean years. I poured my first and second floors and the gable ends with no problem. That's right, ICF gable ends on a 14:12 roof. I used a "Rastra-type" product (it's the same stuff, but a different brand name). Pictures are at dewattohouse.blogspot.com for those who are interested. You might be interested in seeing how little bracing was required.
I see that people are referring to "zip ties." I found them to be really expensive compaired to the packing strapping that I used. You can essentially make a 20' zip tie for 15 cents.
I've started stucco work (i.e., parging) on the ICF bermed area. I plan on using my block scrap as back fill as it meets the requirements for light weight and water permiable. Also some Delta dimple plastic. Finally, I've got some scraps of Form-a-Drain from a prior project. I plan on putting several 4-5' lengths vertically in the back fill to help any water drop down to the footing drain.
Looks like I'm on to window installation, some simple framing, then electrical, etc. So, I'm basically done with the ICF portion of the project. Thanks again to everybody.
Mark Fleming |
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Jelly
 Advanced Member
 Posts:550
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| 16 Oct 2008 06:00 PM |
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Great pics Mark. What brand are the blocks? How would you rate it compared to Rastra? |
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ICFconstruction
 Advanced Member
 Posts:700
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| 16 Oct 2008 07:58 PM |
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Looks great, please what brand composite ICFs did you use? |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Mark Fleming
 Basic Member
 Posts:109
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| 16 Oct 2008 09:28 PM |
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"What brand?" is kind of an odd story. In about 1998, I went to the Seattle Home Show and met Tom St. Louis, the Pacific NW Rastra dealer and a good guy. I looked at the material and thought it had potential. I then attended several Rastra seminars, sponsored by Tom. The were essentially build parties where somebody was building with Rastra and wanted some people to show up and stack block. Morning "lecture" and afternoon work. A mixture of "normal" folk, contractors, honest-to-god hippies, greeners, etc. Good fun.
Then, I saw on Tom's website that Habitat for Humanity was building a Rastra house in Olympia. My wife and I went down on "seminar day." Met a really nice architect that reviewed my house plans for free (I did them myself using Chief Architect, which is the software that he uses). I had earlier retained an architect who charged me $7,000 for initial planning phase drawings that I can now do in 45 minutes on Chief Architect.
I also learned that Habitat is like herding cats. If you don't pay somebody, you get what you pay for. If you can't fire somebody, it's even worse. Mix in Jesus and you've got quite the combination. Good fun.
Best part was I went back to Olympia every Habitat work day while the Rastra was being stacked, poured, and stuccoed. In fact, I became the stucco expert (which was easy, because the don't pay and can't fire, as noted above). More good fun, but it's probably best that they didn't give me authority to fire people. I would have reduced a crew of 25 to 3 (and gotten both more and better work). But I digress.
I had run over my ICF materials list with Mr. St. Louis, gotten a firm quote, and was ready to order the block but then I got sidetracked building a shop garage with living quarters (took me two years). When I tried to get back in touch with him, I had a little difficulty, so I sent out bid requests to a couple of competitors (knowing that there are several knock-off Rastra competitors, no disrespect meant). I got a response from several, including Millenniumblok in Colorado (I still have difficulty finding them on the web). I told the Millenniumblok rep that I already had an old quote from Tom for Rastra, but I knew that the quote was no longer accurate. Awkward pause. He told me Tom had commited suicide. WHAT? The guy at Millenniumblok had been involved in Rastra and he knew it's tortured history. He also knew Tom St. Louis (and that he was a good guy). I got a bid from Millenniumblok was surprisingly close to my 2 year-old Rastra quote.
So, I ordered Millenniumblok. The stated delivery time was 5-6 weeks. I think finally got the block at about 8 weeks and many phone calls. Grrrrrrr. Turns out, the product was shipped from Pima, AZ. Whose in Pima? Eterna block, the company that manufactured Rastra until a few years ago when Rastra and Eterna parted ways. It seems like Rastra and everybody sooner or later parts ways. So, who made my blocks? I guess it could be called Rastraternnium. I just call it ICCF. It's identical to the block I saw 10 years ago at the Seattle Home Show under the trade name of Rastra. Same qualities (good for me, as I knew how to work with it). Same problems (bad for me as this type of product could easily be improved).
Time for dinner.
Mark Fleming |
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Mark Fleming
 Basic Member
 Posts:109
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kate
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 06 Jan 2009 05:55 PM |
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Mark -- I just looked at your entire build blog. Your house is very motivating and well thought-out. Your design has many simlarities to ours (and some key differences -- like a basement and hangar). Other than the concrete pour crew, how much help did you have? Is the house effectively your job, or do your have to spend time earning a paycheck as well? -- Kate |
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ICFconstruction
 Advanced Member
 Posts:700
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| 06 Jan 2009 07:07 PM |
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At what slump did you pour the gable ends? I heard you pour screen grids and composite ICFs at a high slump, but when we pour a gable end it is at a low slump. Looking at the above photos it looks like you might have put a board on top, but you may not have gotten the top of the horizontal cells full. |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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The Sipper
 Basic Member
 Posts:229
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| 06 Jan 2009 07:48 PM |
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Mark, you appear to be what I would call a "Pro DIY'r" , That's great but I hope that your story doesn't motivate too many "wannabes" who aren't willing to invest the time, energy, and effort, in preparation, that you have.
The one thing in your photo that almost brings me to tears is the use of a wood framed roofing system. What a great project for a SIP roof! (maybe others who are researching various products in connection with similiar projects will at least consider this option) I'm sure that you're going to seal all of the roof penetrations, and are probably planning to use spray foam (which is almost as energy efficient as SIPs).
Good luck with the balance of your project (not that you'll need it with your obvious planning skills) |
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| The Sipper |
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ICFconstruction
 Advanced Member
 Posts:700
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| 06 Jan 2009 07:55 PM |
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Sipper, you are right on the money, it would have been perfect for SIPS. |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Mark Fleming
 Basic Member
 Posts:109
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| 09 Jan 2009 04:11 PM |
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Kate,
I retired early to build this house. The secret is, my wife's still working. Once I'm done, I don't know what her reaction will be.
I poured the ICF gables with approximately the same slump as the rest (7.5-8.) The ready-mix yard had some experience and I had done my research. We used a plasticizer and an air entrainer. My biggest concrete problem was with the slab, because the driver got lost and brought a load that was 3 hours old. We'd already poured half the slab and had to continue. If it would have been the first truck, I would have sent it back. Still, the concrete yard was good to me and gave me $$$ discount. Doesn't get rid of the little cracks, but such is life.
The gables got form boards placed as we went up. Some of the horizontal ends didn't get full. The reason is the roof pitch is greater than 45 degrees and the effective slump was about 40 degrees in some areas. It's hard to explain, but basically, some of the ends of the horizontals have concrete in the bottoms, but not the tops. At the most, this is only several inches in from the form boards. It makes no difference from a structural point of view. All of the lintels are solid. All of the top plate bolts are solid. Since there's not a lot of compressive load on a gable end, it's not a big deal. Basically, a gable end has to be strong enough not to fall over. With #5 bar 15" o.c., and double bar over and around the windows, that's not a problem.
The roof is perfect for SIPs except for one problem. I couldn't find a SIP company sophisticated enough to do it. Yes, that's a criticism. I went to two SIP companies. Both had engineering done that required the main beam and the valley beams to be 5.25 x 24" GluLams UNDERNEATH the SIPs. Neither had a system that allowed SIPs to be joined in a "Structural" manner, meaning that the SIPs were draped over a support network of beams. Unlike a traditional rafter roof, the ridges and valleys were huge, and would require a crane for placement. Plus, I would be paying a premium for "Structural" Insulated Panels that really lacked the structural requirement.
So, it's "traditionally" framed. The main ridge beams are 1.5 x 11.5 LVLs. Even at 37 feet, the main beam was placed with three workers and a Genie Lift. The valleys are 9.5 LVLs and don't interfere with headroom. The 2x8 rafters were all "next day delivery" along with StrongTie hangers.
I'm now getting bids on spray foam. Once I get the foam done, I can compare it to my SIP bids. I'm guessing several thousands cheaper, much simpler from a labor and materials perspective, no need to hire a crane and get it to my remote site, and it could be done with my plan (no changes for engineering, dormers, and GluLams). I know SIPs "could" be better, but not on this project. SIP walls, okay. SIP roofs, eh, maybe. SIP roof with complex rooflines and limited headroom, nope.
Mark |
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Hoowood
 New Member
 Posts:78
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Hoowood
 New Member
 Posts:78
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ICFconstruction
 Advanced Member
 Posts:700
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| 26 Apr 2009 06:43 AM |
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Nice looking houses I would like to build more unique ICF homes including composite ICFs. I think there is a real future for composite ICFs.
Hoowood, Is that Isorast? What is the EPS thickness? |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Hoowood
 New Member
 Posts:78
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| 26 Apr 2009 07:06 AM |
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Posted By ICFconstruction on 04/26/2009 6:43 AM Nice looking houses I would like to build more unique ICF homes including composite ICFs. I think there is a real future for composite ICFs.
Hoowood, Is that Isorast? What is the EPS thickness? It is Isorast and the thickness is 14.8'' with a 5,5'' concrete core. I am starting in Atlanta soon. Hoowood |
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mckinlay
 New Member
 Posts:19
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| 26 Apr 2009 10:30 AM |
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Isorast is using a Neopor (BASF) formulation. How much better does this make the ICF and does it add to the cost? I wonder if any other vendors are moving to Neopor versions? |
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Hoowood
 New Member
 Posts:78
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| 26 Apr 2009 10:40 AM |
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Posted By mckinlay on 04/26/2009 10:30 AM Isorast is using a Neopor (BASF) formulation. How much better does this make the ICF and does it add to the cost? I wonder if any other vendors are moving to Neopor versions? Neopor is give a better R - Value at the same size, because biochemically it is combined with graphite. Neopor® insulating materials offer greater insulating performance and up to 50 percent lower use of materials than conventional EPS, helping environmental conservation and saving money. Environmentally-friendly Neopor® insulating materials do not contain CFCs, HCFCs, HFCs or other halogenated cell gases. They contain air as the cell gas, which guarantees the preservation of the thermal conductivity throughout the life of the construction. |
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Donnerwetter
 New Member
 Posts:92
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| 26 Apr 2009 12:16 PM |
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Mckinlay;
Quadlock has used Neopor in Canada. I have spoken to BASF at the WOC this Feb. as well others. The jury seems still to be out as to whether the "Bang is worth the Buck" is there. We are currently looking into it ourselves.
Hoowood;
Welcome to the USA. Thought that that block looked familiar! |
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robinnc
 Basic Member
 Posts:204
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| 26 Apr 2009 09:55 PM |
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HW.....just curious.....what are those orange things over the windows?
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Donnerwetter
 New Member
 Posts:92
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| 27 Apr 2009 12:23 AM |
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Robinnc:
Think that I can answer your question. The orange things would be the housing for the exterior rolling shutters (Hurricane Shutters in Fla.) built in directly into the ICF wall. The RS Housing is made out of Heraglit (a cement bonded Straw board very simular to Tectum here in the US). I was an Exterior Rolling shutter fabricator and installer prior to 1991 and still use then as a complement to ICF's. Better info can be obtained @ www.rollac (Walter and Eva Konrad in Houston TX). I believe that there was a thread on this with-in the past 3 or 4 months.
It could also be the "ISORAST" ICF BLOCK sticker. The colors; Red back-round/yellow print would be their trademark |
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Hoowood
 New Member
 Posts:78
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| 27 Apr 2009 02:38 AM |
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Posted By robinnc on 04/26/2009 9:55 PM HW.....just curious.....what are those orange things over the windows?
Hi @ all The blocks with the ISORAST Label are Lintel blocks that we use. the start from 3'2'' up to almost 21'. I attached my booth where you can see them better and one from a site. Hoowood |
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