After reading these forums for years in anticipation of being an owner/builder, and deciding ICF is the way to go, FINALLY I got my land (Northern Colorado, Fort Collins/Loveland).  (It always takes longer than you expect!  ;-))

The goal is a two-story home, plus walk-out basement, ICF all the way up (concrete roof would be neat if we could afford it, otherwise probably SIPS).  We also have interest in decking material for floors, like Quad-deck or Polysteel (so floors don't squeak and can handle heavier-than-normal loads).

We want radiant floor heating, and used to think geothermal was the way to go (we have plenty of acreage), but it sounds like geothermal with ICF isn't in such favor these days.  (Keep radiant floor heating?)

Is it true that it's best for us to now pick a supplier and engineer/architect that is familiar with each other (so our plans can be adjusted to the product tolerances)?  I'm not sure I understand good protocol in securing bids for different ICF products ... how can a company bid until the plans are adjusted for spans-and-loads, when those should probably be calculated from the product capabilities?

It seems kind of like a chicken-and-egg problem:  How do you pick a product before you get a bid, and how do you finalize your plans until you pick the product? 

This seems easier if bids are similar (then I can compare product features to pick one), but if one product bids at *double* the price of another product (sounds like that's happened), it seems like it would be tough to justify the cost difference.

It looks like there are a couple good suppliers in my area, and I'm trying to come up with a sensible process to select one (for example, one has been very attentive in responding to my questions).  QUESTION:  Is it a big deal if you can select a supplier closer (e.g., 15 miles away), as compared to one that's farther (e.g., 50 miles away)?  How about one that's 500 miles away, but sends a rep, and the bid is competitive (including shipping)?

From the wife:  Given that I have land (in the county), and assuming the permitting process goes smoothly, what kinds of schedules do you experts make for site prep, stack-and-brace, pour-and-roof, and up to the point where you begin interior finishing (e.g., electrical and plumbing)?

As an aside, if you have thoughts on ICF supplier/engineer-architect/build-help in my area, please let me know:  We're ready to rock-and-roll (IT'S ABOUT TIME! ;-)

--charley

Well Charley you have a loaded question there...

First off lets start with where you are located...Is this area new to you? Do you know anyone? Do you have a Builder or Architect or Engineer in mind that knows ICF?

I'm a contractor so I am trying to tell you what I have seen and what problems arise and how to avoid them.

First thing I would do is locate one of the three above if you don't have anyone in mind. Start there, have them recommend the other two. May as well have a team that works together to make the project go smooth. If you choose one of the above and they can't recommend at least one of the other two...move on...quickly. People in this industry should be familiar with others who know/use/recommend the ICF product...Don't go at it blind.

Good chance one of the suppliers can help you get started too, they want to sell product and want you to have a good job, they will normally be able to recommend a contractor, architect and engineer who are familiar with their product. By the way 15 or 50 miles is not that big a difference, I would say anyone within a 100 mile radius would be acceptable and close enough to service you properly.

Your wife's question is not answerable as of today...1500 sq.ft. house and 8000 sq.ft. house have completely different schedules and time frames

My recommendation is to find either a contractor with ICf experience (be sure to check references!!) or ICF supplier that is located within a reasonable distance from your project (like Chris said...within 100 miles or so). An experienced contractor will be able to recommend one or more ICFs he is comfortable with that you can get pricing for, or an ICF supplier can consult with an inexperienced local contractor to make sure that proper installation techniques are used.

Remeber, even though an Engineer has experience with ICFs doesn't necessarily mean that they engineer the walls "effciently." Some will just over engineer the walls with unnecessary steel because of the CYA factor. You will want to work with an enginner that truly understands concrete walls and runs the calculations approporately. Again, this is something that your local ICF supplier should be able to consult on.

When pricing ICFs, be sure to take into account the amount of service they provide, the availability of product, and the type of form (knock-down vs. solid). As with all building material bids, they are based on estimates. You do not want to end up short on product and have to wait for product to get to the jobsite while potentially paying exorbitant shipping costs for those forms. On the other side of it, if you have product left over at the end of the project, it is nice to have a local supplier that will buy back your unused (un-cut) forms.

As far as chicken vs. egg....most ICf suppliers have products that are 6", 8" or 10" thick (concrete thickness). The engineering will determine which thicknesses your project will require, so in this sense you can have your project engineered generically and choose the ICF at any time.

Ultimately it will come down to a supplier providing materials at a reasonable price while at the same time giving you a sense of comfort that they will continue to provide you with adequate service after the order is paid for.

Congratulations on geting started with your home!

To answer questions:

- I've been in this area for 20 years, but don't specifically know people with experience in ICF (most homes here are stick).

- I've talked to builders I like, but they are usually stick builders expressing a willingness to try ICF (no, don't practice on my home - I need it done right the first time).

- I do have one supplier and engineer in mind, because I've traded emails and both seem helpful (but we've only talked generally).  However, I can't help but feel that I've not done proper "due diligence" by getting information from other suppliers or engineers.  (Yes, I'm old enough to have met many people that can "spin a good yarn" but not deliver.)  I'm not cynical -- I just want it to go well, and I know a large part of that is me doing my job to get a good supplier and engineer.

- By "checking references", we're talking about me talking directly to ICF homeowners that used the specific product, or engineer?  Is it like job references, where I'll be told of the couple of projects that went well, and not be told of the projects that didn't work out?  (Just curious how much weight I should put on references....)

- On size-and-schedule:  The house will be closer to the 8000 sq.ft. end of the scale than the 1500 sq.ft. end (although much of it will be unfinished workshop).  I want bigger, but wife is trying to control my unrealistic urges.  ;-))

To summarize:

- Sounds like a supplier within 100 miles should be fine.

- Sounds like a team that's worked together in the past would be best.

Thanks so much for your thoughts!

--charley

Local supplier is great, however with your suspended concrete floor needs you may have to pull an installer from outside the "100 mile" radius. Your local supplier should be networked to put a team together.

Kevin

Charley, Will start building our 3100 sf ICF home early next year and yup it's about time. It's taken awhile to shape our ground and ensure proper drainage, install electric, water well, septic system, road and shop/barn, as well as, getting familiar with the terrain and comfortable that the homestead is layed out satisfactorily. You may already have the perfect site to place your home, but we had to reshape part of a terraced wheat field to create our home site.

We were lucky enough to meet our designer at the Wichita Home show who specializes in ICF homes. In fact, he's worked in construction and has done over 75 ICF designs and although he works primarily with one brand of block he can and will design to other blocks of different widths. He doesn't do structural engineering but most straight forward designs can use the engineering tables that many block makers provide and are based on the Prescriptive for ICF Residential Design, 2nd Edition. But I'd consider Kevin's advice about proper design and install of a suspended concrete floor. We had a structural engineer do some rebar design for our taller walls. Two of the block distributors in our area recommended designers so yours should be able to as well. Good luck. Dave

Charley,

Best of luck with your build. I do think its important to find a qualified ICF installer. I have conducted a quick search and found that Insulated Concrete Walls (National ICF Installation Services) apparently has an office in Woodlands Park, CO about 85 miles from you. Check out their website http://www.icwalls.com/ to learn more. To be honest I don't know a bunch about them, but I would think that they are experienced. I agree all the above comments as well so hopefully this will be of help.

renangle

You wrote: We want radiant floor heating, and used to think geothermal was the way to go (we have plenty of acreage), but it sounds like geothermal with ICF isn't in such favor these days.

Who says 'geothermal with ICF isn't in such favor these days'.  I'd say the two technologies are a mariage made in Heaven.  I'd be very interested to see/hear and views against the two.

From what I understand, current thinking is "ICF and Radiant:  Good", but "ICF and Geothermal:  ?Not cost effective".

I think my earlier comments in this thread may have been confusing, as I think they triggered this other thread: "Radiant floor heating and ICF: Ok or not?" at:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/forumid/4/postid/45338/view/topic/Default.aspx

However, the source for my current understanding regarding the effectiveness with geothermal in ICF is based on reading threads like:

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/forumid/4/postid/44000/view/topic/Default.aspx

In summary, Wes has advocated geothermal for several years, but seems more impressed with the efficiencies of current air-to-air heat pumps, and concerned with the maintenance and additional installation costs associated with geothermal units.

So, yes, I'm still intending radiant heating.  However, I'm starting to think it shouldn't be based on geothermal technologies ...

Still researching ...