There is a read in the general forum on superior walls. What are your thoughts on superior walls. Do you compete with them in your area? How do you think they will preform over time? What do you think of the overall concept?

I have two thoughts on Superior Walls. I worry about their claim that their thin coat of concrete is 'waterproof' and requires no other measures other than footer draintile. Even it that layer is 'waterproof', what happens if a crack develops? how is it going to react over time to different soil chemistries? And secondly, all the different panels, even outside corners, are bolted together and 'waterproofed' only with a rather sticky form of caulk that is field applied. My concerns are How good a job was done with the application, and How will this product hold up over time?
The one project that we have been involved in where the owner chose to use superior walls, we came back and waterproofed the walls with peel and stick, and dimpleboard. This made me feel better about the long term, but really pi**ed off the Superior people who went running to the owner claiming that I was wasting his money with unnecessary steps.
Needless to say, I don't hold the local superior people in very high regard.

Why are we talking about this wall system here it NOT an icf ?

Woulfman,

Technically, it is an ICF.  It is insulated and has concrete, although very little of either.  Journal of Light Construction ran an article on them last year, I believe, and it intrigued me enough to do some more research.

I prefer the strength and insulation values of a poured-in-place-honest-by-God-ICF-foam-form.  Competition for me is a moot point, as they don't currently service Texas.  And, since I get blank looks whenever I mention basements in Texas, I doubt they ever will expand this way.

That's my $0.02.

jeff

I am of the opinion that the superior wall system is inferior to that of an ICF form. A poured in place, monolithic, reinforced, insulated wall, such as an ICF, outperforms Superior Walls by many times. I also believe, due to their manufacturing process, their carbon foot print is higher in the end than that of an ICF. Further, I read claims that no footings are required for their system, just a bed of gravel, pebbles etc. I might have misunderstood this claim to be in effect in all regions of the US, but if it is, it would be idiotic. Lastly their is no price point advantage, as a matter of fact, in my parts (NC) they turned out to be more expensive than an installed ICF wall (basement). I also know, again depending on the size of the project and little openings in the basement, that a basement can be erected, inspected, poured, in 2 days. It is all about making music, having all insturments tuned finely and play together on one sheet of music.

Manfred,
Superior walls are set on a bed of clean stone, compacted and leveled by their installation crews. This is standard engineering for their company. No concrete footings at all.
However, I must admit that the idea intrigues me. This is the same system used with all-weather wood foundations. The theory is that this layer of clean stone produces a capillary break and drain for all ground water, thereby eliminating the need for drain tiles and reducing the hydrostatic load on the walls. My limited experience with this idea has, so far, been positive, though I have no long term knowledge.

This system will just pass building code ( wow a D- on the report card).
The end price is really about 2 X the price as poured wall at a tenth of the strength.
 What are the good things?
  Time

I can stack a basement faster all by myself  than the 2 week time from ordering it and have them set it .

No footings 

  I don't think so. I had a hard time getting people to build with icf (at first).
 But no footings come on.

Need I go on. not even on the same page as an ICF wall.
 It's more like steel frame with dura rock panels set on a gravel bed.
Good luck with all this stuff, I will have no part in it.

Wes, any good building needs to sit on a good foundation which needs to be connected to a "good" footing. What is a good footing? In my opinion, and that of most codes, footings should not be floating, but be of permanence supporting the load from above in an equal manner. How is it that we usually put rebar even in to the footing and none is required for the Superior Wall construction? I know their engineers sign off on it, I guess that is why you will not find Superior Walls applied to a commercial, institutional or industrial application. It has to make sense, does it not? Sure, you can by cars with 3 wheels but are they as safe in the corners as a car with 4 wheels? I am sure I am taking the leap again and I am stepping on toes here.

We need footings to spread and support the weight of a structure. And I subscribe by the belief to keep water outside, not underneath a building. The bed of rock will drain water, under the wall and to the underside of the basement floor.

Superior Walls are not ICFs......ICFs are superior walls.

This is true. But here in this area it is our biggest competition behind cmu's. I find that the only ones that fall for this is home owners, and pickup truck telephone contractors. That know nothing about building. They use a slick used car salesman to shoot a line to these people. They show they have engineering numbers to show they do not need a footer, Enron had accounting numbers also just before the fall. I think they cost way too much for what you get. When we bid against them the only difference is the cost of the footer. With ICF you get 8" of concrete, they have 1". I have heard of quite a few failures, most due to water intrusion. They also leave a 1/2" thick book hanging on there wall as a disclaimer. Once it is installed the homeowner signs off on it, then they own it.

Superior had a short run in our area. For one there's alot of work involved in top-plateing the foundation to accept the floor system. On corners that point into the foundation there is nothing to attach to. The basement slab has to be in place, along with the wood deck on before backfill. My experience here has been the walls bow under backfill pressure. One local GC company with 120 employees did 3 foundations in a sub and regreted it after words, the rest are all being built with ICF now.

Price wise they appear to be less expensive on the front end, but more costly overall. If your competing against them at all ,talk to an engineer about their opionion, and relay that info to a customer if need be.

Dave

I am currently building a cottage using superior walls in NC. Its a box 20 by 30. I used my skid steer and dump truck and one day of my buddys backhoe[$400] to prep my site and brought in 40 plus yards of 78m [$1100]washed gravel filling my excavation to a depth of 16 to 20 inchs tamped every 5 or 6 inchs with double french drains, lot has a ten percent grade with walk out basement. My cost for delivered and installed walls, including crane was less than 10k. 100 linear feet. I spent less than $12000, walls are ten feet high. Seems like a good price to me. I love the idea of icf but they are not real common here. The blocks i looked at a couple years ago seemed really steep and i had seen this old house use the superior walls as well as the mag Fine home building. I am very happy thus far, water will never reach my slab, and after i use dimple material and waterproofing like s. walls instruct i will have a dusty basement. Seems to me if my living depended on competing against something i would learn everything possible about that product. Sorry to run on but there were so many false statements about superior walls i had to reply. And to Wolf, Have you ever even seen a superior wall in person. I doubt it so it migh be better to share information on this forum based on exp or observation or at least direct relaying of info. Alot of people like me depend on these forums for education.

Brawler,
What "false statements"?

You don't have footings. If you have water outside, you will have it under your basement floor. You added water proofing. You don't have much concrete or insulation. I could have built myself a 1000 sf of ICF walls for 10k. I am sure your walls will work out fine for you, and are better than a lot of building methods but ICFs are superior in every way that I have experienced.

If Superior Walls were better, I would use them.

Brawler,
I have read all the posts on this thread, and, considering my experience with Superior Walls, I find no false statements.
What are you referencing?
Apparently, your supplier told you to add the waterproofing, whereas my supplier was adamant that additional waterproofing was not necessary. Why the difference, I don't understand, however, I think your supplier has far more common sense than mine.
Now, the theory of footers vs. no footers will generate a debate any time, any place. However, the engineering of crushed stone footers is not exclusive to Superior. It is different, and therefore will require more widespread use and the passage of time for it to become generally accepted.

"And to Wolf, Have you ever even seen a superior wall in person. I doubt it so it might be better to share information on this forum based on exp or observation or at least direct relaying of info. a Lot of people like me depend on these forums for education."

 Yes Mr. Brawler  I have seen more then one of the (superior walls pojects)
and we built wood basements on footings in the 80s At 1/2 the price of this.
I hope you back fill with clear washed stone up the walls {NOT clay or dirt}
 Trust me water is the enemy here not me!
Will you give me an education on what you have into you build of the basement when you have it back filled. 
 Your Hr. and $.
Now if your going to finish the walls lets look at the $ for that?
May be I got it all wrong? 
 Be sure you will get back to us on the price so we all can see.
 You opened this up, now share the education for all of us here.
Have you seen anyone defend superior walls here?
We need  to open the floor to hear both sides. (us pour in place guys that work with plastic and foam maybe need to be open minded)
I am willing to hear all about it.
Practice what you preach!

Wes, I have read your post on several of the forums here and learned alot from it. Nowhere in the s alls liturature will you find the tern waterproof. Water resistent and damp proof are both used and i learned in the lserbech sips book about the diffrence. My rep told me since i am using the basement for living space that waterproofing was cheap insurance and i agree. any water that makes it under my slab and insulation will pass through filter fabric, gravel, and into a socked drain perimiter to daylight. We have clay , maybe thats why he said to use waterproof but the co. says some situations with require it. Manfred. The co. is very very specific about the stone footers. Not "gravel, pebbles etc." As far as your most codes dont approve of their footers read IRC 403.1-404.41. Not sure but i thought most building codes were kinda based on IRC. As far as carbon footprint you may be right but concrete being as carbon intensive in production and transportation, and that s. walls usealot less. Tlc-icf . The walls have 1 3/4 thick wall to keep out the soil but the strenght is in the concrete studs. at least 7 1/2 inchs thick. Thats way difrent than comparing 8 inch to 1 inch. That 1/2 inc book you mention is the proper way to pour and deck. Thats it. Woulf, you say s walls are 2 times the price and 10 percent the strength. Do you really believe that. If i could have had poured walls for 5 grand i would have jumped at the chance. Steel frame with durarock? A steel reinforced precast 5000 psi concrete panel is really comparable to durarock? Thats why i asked if you had ever seen one . As far as backfilling wouldnt i have the expense of that with any wall? As far as my finish above grade i will just be painting or staining their broomed finish. It looks good enough fo me and i'll save some on siding. My hours are my time away form work. Thats the DIY part and i dont think they are any diffrnt fromother systems. Maybe i spent more time excavating but i didnt have to pay anyone to pour footers. I rarely post but i saw incorrect staements and spoke up. I just reread my post. I dont mean to sound "preachy" I dont have any enemys here but i would say superior walls would be your direct competitor and if pointing out a lack of knowledge about your competitor is preachy so be it. By the way, i would swap my basement for ICF in a heartbeat if i could have but i just could not find the info on affordable people around here. S. walls made it easy on me. I may be screwed but i think i did ok. Sorry about the typing

brawler, good luck to you. It may work out for you or not. I can't comment on your particular situation. Whether you have a basement with a 1-story or a 2 story above. Who knows what these guys from Superior Walls will think up next. I read up on IRC 403.1. I don't mean to question the situation you are in - you have to deal with what you've got - but why do we connect our basement walls to the footers via rebar? Why do we affix the first story to the basement walls? I certainly don't claim to be a structural engineer but I find floating footers not to be good practice, as much as I would never installed a wooden 2x4 or 2x6 basement as is was "the new technology" in the 70's. Wooden basement walls? Come on - floating footers? I don't mean to be unkind, so I hope it works out for you. All the Best.

Manfred
2 storys of six inch Insulspan sips are what i plan to use above. 14" floor trusses supporting the floor. I guess you connect footers to walls with rebar because its a cold joint and is the best practice. Thats why i used the tabs supplied with my walls to bend down on the interior base of the walls, inserted rebar and poured my slab locking them in 5 inchs of concrete. For my walls to move in at the bottom they would have to buckle my 5-6 inch slab. Highly unlikely. For the bottom of my walls to splay out they would have to push out concrete slabs on two sides or many tons of backfill on the other. I dont think theres alot of "floating " involved. I bet the "new technology" tern is used to deride ICF all the time. Anyone in the area is free to check out my walls. Michael 704 is the area code #605 0577 Site is on lake norman, nc

Recently I had ICFs dismissed because of "New Technology" a CMU guy convinced the customer that nobody knows how long the EPS will last.

Brawler, why such a thick basement floor? How would it work to set Superior walls, or any foundation walls for that matter, on the basement floor with a thickened edge.