when I got a quote from them it was 23k for about 1700sqft Xi walls for the basement and 370 sqft 4' tall standard garage stem walls. Installed in about half a day they said.

Is that a completed price? I.E. waterproofing? What are the costs for additional insulation? What is the savings from a conventional concrete footing to how they do there's?

I paid close to $10,000 for 96 feet of 10 ft walls insulated to r12 installed in 2008. I excavated and placed the stone myself, useing alot more stone than called for. It was cheaper to have The Sealing Agents do the waterproofing than to do it myself. Im gonna try to include some photos. One shows the curb i placed on the outside of the wall where it was not backfilled. The wall has tabs on the on the inside that had rebar placed in it before the slab was poured around it but as an added precaution i poured a small slab outside of the wall for added measure. If a tornado comes we will be in the basement fo sho! I would enjoy answering any questions about any part of the project. javascript:amaf_insertHTML('%3Cimg%20src=/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/viewer.aspx?portalid=0&moduleid=369&attachid=3492%20border=0%20/%3E');amaf_toggleInline(3492,7093,0);javascript:amaf_insertHTML('%3Cimg%20src=/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/viewer.aspx?portalid=0&moduleid=369&attachid=3493%20border=0%20/%3E');amaf_toggleInline(3493,7093,0);javascript:amaf_insertHTML('%3Cimg%20src=/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/viewer.aspx?portalid=0&moduleid=369&attachid=3494%20border=0%20/%3E');amaf_toggleInline(3494,7093,0);

My quote is for 85 feet of 9' walls with the R23 insulation. I have to dig the hole and add the stone.

Posted By Chris Johnson on 08 Jul 2012 08:14 AM
Is that a completed price? I.E. waterproofing? What are the costs for additional insulation? What is the savings from a conventional concrete footing to how they do there's?

You do not need to add a waterproofer to their system. The quotes I got for poured walls plus r10 on the exterior, including concrete footings was around 19k. ICF was around 26-28k. Add in furring the walls out on a poured system and you are close to a wash. The biggest advantage is the time savings. They can set the panels and then be building the foor deck the next day, or possibly even the same day. Needless to say I have not made a decision or started the build, but chances are I will do ICF (possibly all the way up).

Well obviously I am glad to see you going ICF, but looking at your numbers I must ask why?

Why is waterproofing not required on this product? My code reads anything below grade requires damp proofing at a minimum

They use 5000 psi concrete so water can not penetrate it. I am going with ICF because the numbers I posted were bids. I am actually going to DIY it with the help of a couple friends in the business and the rep will be onsite to train and assemble, and then on pour day. Add the cost of forms, rebar, concrete, a few steaks on the grill and a case of beer for the help, puts me right around 15k for the basement and footing. I am using Form-a-drain and dimple waterproofer, which is not included in that number.

5000 psi? I don't believe you can make concrete "waterproof" by increasing the PSI - some great additives exist for about $30 per yard but even they don't guarantee it and they encourage a belt and suspenders approach.

SW dosen't call it waterproof, just dampproof.

I'm hopping the IFC guy will get back to me. The advantage there is they could do both floors at once. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted By TexasICF on 08 Jul 2012 04:48 PM
5000 psi? I don't believe you can make concrete "waterproof" by increasing the PSI - some great additives exist for about $30 per yard but even they don't guarantee it and they encourage a belt and suspenders approach.

From the SW website: Superior Walls' special 5,000+ psi concrete mix is moisture resistant. Because additional damp-proofing is not required, this can help you save both time and money. With the specified crushed stone footing and perimeter drain, water will be directed away from your foundation, helping to keep your home dry. With our patented technologies and superior manufacturing methods, our basements are the very finest in the world and guaranteed for 15 years.*
The American Concrete Institute (ACI) “Manual of Concrete Practice” Report 350R-2 dated 1998, states “Usually it is more economical and dependable to resist liquid penetration through the use of quality concrete, proper design of joint details, and adequate reinforcement rather than by means of an impervious protective barrier or coating.” According to experience, specially formulated concrete mix design and advanced casting techniques provide Superior Walls with a concrete that is watertight, damp proof, and designed for protection against degradation or spalling, even when exposed to the most severe soil or weather conditions. ACI states that water permeability is a direct function of the water/cement ratio (a lower w/c ratio results in lower permeability). Superior Walls concrete mix design provides a water/cement ratio of 0.40, whereas the maximum water/cement ratio of concrete intended to be watertight is 0.50. Additional Bituminous* material or other coatings on the outside face of the wall (where it can deteriorate over the life span of the structure) is not needed because water resistance is integrated into the design. The Styrofoam insulation is bonded to the inside of the concrete (where it is protected from the backfill) and provides an elastic moisture barrier and damp proofing for the life of the structure.

I talked to an engineer a couple years ago that has spent the past 15-20 yrs doing envelope testing and design and asked about SW claims that a WP is not necessary. According to him, a high strength concrete does not make it water-tight. Whether it is a 3000psi or a 5000psi, it is still pourous. He said there are 2 ways to make waterproof concrete: using an admixture (I know Kryton waterproofing has a product for this application), or by allowing the concrete to cure under pressure (if I remember correctly, this is basically applying pressure to the mix as it cures to force out any air, thereby creating a concrete mix that is no longer pourous). If anyone knows more about the 2nd option, feel free to correct me, as this convo was quite a while ago. In the end, the engineers' basic comment was that both options are not cost-effective, when compared to simply adding a membrane/dimple sheet/spray on WP.

I am not about to defend them or their claims, however they have a 15 year warranty to back it up, so obviously they have done the testing to know water does not get through easily if at all without dampproofing.

I would hope a house can last without leaks for longer than 15 years....that's not really a great warranty when your house should last 50-100 years or more

And what (and how long) do you warrant your walls? In writing?

Posted By ibgreen on 09 Jul 2012 01:30 PM
And what (and how long) do you warrant your walls? In writing?

Good point.  But how long (and how many) has SW been around?  I would guess that it does not have the track record of tar applied to a concrete foundation or even a peel-and-stick/dimple board on ICF (correct me if I am wrong).  There are, of course, regular concrete foundations that leak, but it is a small percentage and can often be attributed to poor maintanence by the homeowner (ie, downspouts plugged, grade towards foundation, etc.).  Superior Walls MAY work fine without a WP, but I would hate to spend a few hundred grand on a new house just to the guinnea pig that realizes it does not work.  For my money, I would go with something that has been proven.  In my area I have seen very few SW installed, so I have little faith in the system, simply because it has not been proven in my experience.

I still want to ask the original question: Why are we discussing this system on an ICF board?
Yes its got insulation and concrete - but no forms. It is not ICF.

(they are yet to get back to me on how to pour concrete floors on top of this - a detail or 2 would be great)

One of my projects has a concrete porch floor on top of Superior Walls.  Used bent rebar to tie the porch slab to the SW.  Used metal decking as a form for the concrete slab.  Sprayed closed cell foam on the bottom of the metal deck since it was a part of the basement.  No waterproofing other than footing drains covered with clean gravel.  Did not have any code problems with this approach.

Check with SW and your code offical before placing slabs on top of SW.

By the way, this home is the only home in the subdivision that did not flood after several heavy rains over the last five years.  Homeowner is very happy with his dry basement.

Posted By TexasICF on 08 Jul 2012 04:48 PM
5000 psi? I don't believe you can make concrete "waterproof" by increasing the PSI - some great additives exist for about $30 per yard but even they don't guarantee it and they encourage a belt and suspenders approach.

I agree 100% Glad to see ya-ll still here. Things are tough here in middle Tennessee. Not a lot of ICF work, still hanging in there. SW is bankrupt here, lack of work and suits I guess? I did not think in 08 this forum would get this many hits, guess it must have struck a nurve. Ya-ll take care and hope housing gets better.

Just curious what sort of suits you know of that Superior walls had. Id love the details since i have a SW basement.