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Windows for ICF's
Last Post 23 Dec 2008 01:27 PM by stephenm. 15 Replies.
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VMG
New Member
Posts:31
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| 18 Dec 2008 09:07 PM |
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I like the idea of a European windows, I think$$$.
Are they really worth the extra money? Why?
what is the BEST way to have the opening done,
and what material (wood, plastic, etc) and Why?
I have gone thru other threads, but sometimes
I feel what is the good, better, and best goes
without explaining it it terms I would understand.
Any advise is greatly appreciated.
Vic |
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Manfred
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 18 Dec 2008 11:15 PM |
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vic, not all windows are built the same! European windows are built in general to absolutely different standards than American windows. Then, within the European community, there are differences again. There are very few manufacturers, if any, that build tilt/turn windows in North America to European standards. Why are European windows better performer in energy efficiency and structure. It all had to do with an oil crisis in 70's. The Europeans, most of whom are totally dependant on oil, understood very quickly that building standards had to be improved in terms of energy efficiency - and so the window. THe product and structure of the product had to be improved. This is government regulated by independant labs, and inspection. An American window, unless it was build to higher standards, would not meet the code in Germany.
I would have the opening with concrete only, and I explain why. I would build a temporary buck and remove it after the pour. The window gets placed into the opening, shimmed to plumb, level and square, and attached into the concrete. The little void gets filled with foam and conventional finishes. Why this approach? Wood warps, pressure treated or not. Pressure treated wood, in addition, is chemically treated - this can't be good for your health. Plastic, in my opinion, does not provide the strenght needed for a good window anchor. So, why use the plastic at all if you have to go through it into the concrete? |
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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VMG
New Member
Posts:31
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| 19 Dec 2008 12:17 PM |
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Thanks,
Have you had experiance installing with these windows?
In the end of the project, was it worth the extra costs
for the homeowner, and as a builder would you see a
value for yourself on a personal note.
I'm just want to know what part of my home should not
cut corners, and not throwing away money.
Vic |
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Manfred
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 19 Dec 2008 09:34 PM |
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Vic, I think you have to find the budgetary medium for your build. But I suggest you don't try to safe on your perimeter envelope. For what is it worth: if you can't enjoy your $10000-$20000 granite, or whatever, countertop in the kitchen if you have drafts that make you shiver, was the countertop investment worth it? I know this is exagerated but you get my point.
The windows are worth it, period. Better insulation, sound attenuation, stronger build - leave the outside - outside! |
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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ICFconstruction
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 19 Dec 2008 09:42 PM |
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Without a wood buck installation of the window and trim inside and out are difficult.
I like plastic (vinyl) windows with a thermal brake. Often windows with wood sashes are chosen, but usually turn black due to condensation. Of course that happens no matter the building method. |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Chris Johnson
Basic Member
Posts:465
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| 19 Dec 2008 09:54 PM |
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Vic when you build a house there are things that need to be addressed immediately and those that can be changes down the road, personally I would invest heavy in the structure and make due with the finishes that I could afford now and like all in North America remodel cosmetically down the road.
As you start the process of making selections you will see noticable the difference between a $ 200.00 window and a $ 1500.00 window. The old adage you get what you pay for holds true to this day.
European windows are nice, well different than what we are accustomed to on this side of the pond. Price wise when comparing to top of the line from some of the top manufacturers in North America they can be at the same price...unless of course you are talking the wonderful Italian windows that just went in a project I did and after waiting 6 months and paying almost 3 fold what a top of the line here costs I could 'feel' the difference...not saying I could justify the price increase.
Manfred is correct, if possible direct attachment to the concrete is best, however since I am normally ICF installs only I end up installing wood since the framer who installs the windows down the road ends up calling me since he doesn't know how to attach to concrete. I tried the plastic route with very little success as well and by the time you purchase the plastic inserts for window attachment it becomes cost prohibitive.
No pressure treated wood is not good for your health...but...if you seal it i.e. drywall, tape, etc. any off gasing is not going to affect you.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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chebyrashka
New Member
Posts:14
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| 20 Dec 2008 10:31 AM |
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I just finished a house with ICF and European windows, overall it went very well. The windows I used were from a company called VEKA, they are huge throughout the world, a German company actually. The interesting part though is they have one of their largest manufacturing plants in Pennsylvania so in a lot of ways it's the same as buying from any domestic manufacturer.
Price wise I think they were in line with other windows like Pella, Anderson, Marvin. I looked at a lot of European window companies and the problem was always exchange rates and shipping charges. These always added about 30% plus to the cost.
The windows I have are very high performance, Cardinal 366 glass the total U-value is about .28 I believe. Alot of contractors and builders who came through the house when the glass came were impressed with the size of the glass units.
Overall they are easy to install. The frames are very rigid so squaring them up is almost a non issue.
The only problem I ran into was with the inspector because they are used to seeing a nail flange and know the procedure for sealing those windows but these they had no idea and I had grief from that.
The tilt and turn style is cool and a lot easier than operating those casement style cranks all the time. I have awning windows as well and those are crankless also.
The downside is probably people who want wood windows these are vinyl so if you want wood you can get a wood style foil but I haven't seen what this looks like.
I'd definately do the bucks different I think, maybe use plywood. I had some very large openings and the 2x12 bucks would warp and twist, we had to replace some etc. The plywood was a lot better.
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lkazanov2
Basic Member
Posts:177
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| 20 Dec 2008 10:48 AM |
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Posted By chebyrashka on 12/20/2008 10:31 AM
I just finished a house with ICF and European windows, overall it went very well. The windows I used were from a company called VEKA, they are huge throughout the world, a German company actually. The interesting part though is they have one of their largest manufacturing plants in Pennsylvania so in a lot of ways it's the same as buying from any domestic manufacturer.
Price wise I think they were in line with other windows like Pella, Anderson, Marvin. I looked at a lot of European window companies and the problem was always exchange rates and shipping charges. These always added about 30% plus to the cost.
The windows I have are very high performance, Cardinal 366 glass the total U-value is about .28 I believe. Alot of contractors and builders who came through the house when the glass came were impressed with the size of the glass units.
Overall they are easy to install. The frames are very rigid so squaring them up is almost a non issue.
The only problem I ran into was with the inspector because they are used to seeing a nail flange and know the procedure for sealing those windows but these they had no idea and I had grief from that.
The tilt and turn style is cool and a lot easier than operating those casement style cranks all the time. I have awning windows as well and those are crankless also.
The downside is probably people who want wood windows these are vinyl so if you want wood you can get a wood style foil but I haven't seen what this looks like.
I'd definately do the bucks different I think, maybe use plywood. I had some very large openings and the 2x12 bucks would warp and twist, we had to replace some etc. The plywood was a lot better.
Thanks for posting your experience. We are considering Marvin Integrity line. I will research this brand you mentioned. The buck issue is relevant. I know some have complained about the dimensional stability of the wood buck, especially PTL. I am researching Timbersil for the alternative. Certainly laminated sheets of plywood are good ideas.
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VMG
New Member
Posts:31
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| 20 Dec 2008 05:45 PM |
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I appreciate everyones responce!
If lumber was to be used, how about engineered lumber.
Would this be approved with tar paper, or water and ice shield?
I'm not going to consider PT lumber at all.
I have seen nails to hold the wood to the concrete.
To me this doesn't seem to be very strong.
If this was your own house. Hoe would you anchor it?
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VMG
New Member
Posts:31
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| 20 Dec 2008 05:46 PM |
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How would you anchor it?
Sorry on the spelling
Vic |
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Manfred
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 20 Dec 2008 07:08 PM |
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The nail heads to provide enough contact grip to the concrete. Another way would be to insert J-bolts on the concrete side in a staggered way. When it comes to lumber there is always give and take depending on the climate, freeze-thaw, humidity etc. If you get into engineered lumber you are talking more money. Then you would still have to provide a barrier between the wood and the concrete in a stay-in-place situation. More time, more prep, more labor, more money.
I still practice and do propose to anyone to anchor the window directly to the concrete, taking out the buck completely. This will reduce another construction part out of the wall that will react differently to the environment than the concrete. The operation of your window will be guaranteed because its frame work (hole) is stable. Just my humble opinion. |
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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VMG
New Member
Posts:31
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| 20 Dec 2008 07:29 PM |
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Manfred,
Do you have any pictures of your style of installation?
Thanks,
Vic |
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Manfred
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 20 Dec 2008 07:34 PM |
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unfortunately not handy |
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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stephenm
New Member
Posts:4
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| 23 Dec 2008 02:15 AM |
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I am currently planning an ICF build "down under near Sydney, Australia" and was planning to use engineered lumber/Laminated Veener Lumber for the bucks. We dont have access to PVC bucks here but some ICF suppliers are providing aluminium extrusion for bucks which does give a really good anchorage direct to the concrete. The windows are attached to an external flange on the extrusion while the extrusion width overlaps the edges of the foam and has stiffening channels on the back face embedded in the concrete. Depending on which way around you place the extrusion the windows can be installed from either the inside or outside.
Our climate is temperate with a temperature range from about min of 7 deg C in winter to max about 38 C in summer. Maybe the LVL bucks would have better thermal properties but as my windows will be double glazed low E in aluminium frames the Aluminium bucks may not really make much difference to the overall performance. Probably not a good choice for a really cold climate but with a minimum temperature well above freezing we never have to shovel snow.
Has anybody had any hands experience on with LVL bucks that can comment on whether they are likley to distort or for this climate would I be better to go with the aluminium extrusion for bucks???
Any thoughts??
Stephen
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Chris Johnson
Basic Member
Posts:465
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| 23 Dec 2008 04:26 AM |
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Two things I have noted using wood...
1. if moisture from the concrete comes into contact during the pour the wood will warp/twist/curl, etc.
2. If a proplonged period exists between the pour and the placement of the windows the elements (sun/UV,rain, etc.) causes the wood to warp/twist/curl, etc.
Look back a few pages when we discussed bucks before, I use PT plywood and ripped 2x6, this has proven effective for me in no issues during the pour, however I had one job where it was 8 months from the pour until the client finally ordered and installed their windows and there was some warpage to the wood from exposure to the elements.
Without a thermal break you are still open to heat loss/heat gain even with temps not as 'cold' winters, but summer heat can cause the same reverse issues. My nephew is in Austrailia right now complaining of 35C temps with 100% humidity, my brother invited him home to -30C and 0% humidity...he declined
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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stephenm
New Member
Posts:4
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| 23 Dec 2008 01:27 PM |
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Thanks for the info Chris
Hoping to get the windows in a few weeks after the pour. Will get the window supplier to pre order all the frame materials but not do a final measure until the pour is completed so we will have the build time on the windows to wait. I was planning to seal all the buck timber with an exterior grade paint which should provide some degree of moisture protection. I agree on the thermal break desirability and will spec thermal break frames in some key rooms but cost and local availaibility of a thermal break option for some of the window types may mean we only do this in bathrooms and the master bedroom. We have not gone with PVC windows as we cannot achieve the design appearance we are looking for. My daughter and her fiancee are both architects and have done all the desgn work so we looking at doing something specifically to meet our requirements for functionality, appearance and energy efficiency. Our building site is 4 degrees off north at the rear so similar to your desired ideal southern aspect in the northern hemisphere. We have outlook to the west so will use external vertical louvres for sun control for the west windows but have them able to slide out of site in winter time.
Regards |
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