Best knockdown system
Last Post 14 Apr 2009 10:56 AM by icfcontractor. 22 Replies.
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klemenvUser is Offline
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29 Dec 2008 05:18 PM
I am considering an ICF. Which knockdown system do you prefer?
ICFconstructionUser is Offline
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29 Dec 2008 05:29 PM
A non-knockdown system.

Your membership lists you as a distributor, what do you distribute?
Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
klemenvUser is Offline
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29 Dec 2008 05:56 PM
I don't distribute ICF. I am considering ICF for a project and only block availabe costs around 13$ pe sqf. I mean cost of block alone. So I am looking at knockdowns because they are easier to transport. Brick and mortar is an alternative, but I want to try ICF this time.
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29 Dec 2008 06:10 PM
Where are you that ICFs are that much? NUDURA is a great product and folds.

What do you distribute?
Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
klemenvUser is Offline
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30 Dec 2008 05:36 AM
I am from continental Europe. Among blocks we have Isorast and Wolf, that are amazing products at 10-13$ per sqf. Other available are StyroStone, Quad Lock, IntegraSpec, and there are rumors that Nudura is coming.

So I would apreciate, if anyone can comment differences between Quad Lock, IntegraSpec and other knockdown system.
renangleUser is Offline
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30 Dec 2008 07:56 AM
klemenv,

I agree with ICFconstruction when he said "a non-knockdown block", but that being said I know that Amvic manufactures ICF block in the UK. You will probably receive better assistance if you can be more specific on your location in continental Europe. Here in the US we typically advise those interested in building with ICF to search for a distributor that can offer bracing and project assistance rather than seek out block specifically. Since you are in Europe this may be a little more challenging for some of us here, but with more specific information from you we will be better served to offer you help imho. renangle
Quad-LockUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 12:02 PM
Great choice to go with ICF technology!

A few points regarding your original question:
1. Quad-Lock can offer multiple insulation values, especially the U-0.20 / R-32 configuration will prove to be a selling point.
2. Quad-Lock was one of the very first 'flat-wall' ICFs 15 years ago with the German engineering from our founder.
3. Quad-Lock is ISO 9001:2000 certified.
4. Make sure to look at the European Code Approvals: see Quad-Lock's


Now regarding the other answers:
We keep hearing the claims about blocks being faster & better - but nobody has proven it except maybe for large 'box' buildings with 4 corners and few windows.

A good portion of your installation time is spent on windows/doors, T-walls, angles, corners, radii, etc. The more of them, the better a knock-down system. On a regular single-family home, we haven't seen evidence that a block is faster... in fact we seem to be the only ones showing a time-lapse of an ICF assembly. What do the block systems have to hide? It's probably their mounds of wasted block at the end of the job - no issue with knock-down systems.

Another issue are corners - many block system need to 'strap' them and/or brace them from the outside to be able to hold the concrete during the pour (you will see this on many of their jobsite pictures). This may work OK for the basement or first floor. What do you do on the second floor and higher? Install outside scaffolding? Quad-Lock's unique Corner, Angle, and T-wall solutions using metal brackets allow building from the safety of the inside of the building. This minimizes the amount of outside scaffolding required and the risk of long falls for workers.

For commercial construction, forget blocks when you need to pre-build your rebar or when you have higher-than-normal rebar concentrations (very common in seismic areas). Look at these pictures and ask the block proponents about it.



Best regards,
Georg Kustermann
Quad-Lock Building Systems is proud to Sponsor GreenBuildingTalk.com
The SipperUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 12:29 PM
Another "Knock Down" system to look at: TF "The vertical system".
The Sipper
thagreenUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 02:03 PM
Quad-lock,
I still have a sour taste in my mouth from that picture. The installers must of brought down the heavans on that one. We , key word, 'usually' build up and then slide down that engenering nonsense inside the wall, usually. BTW not all brands have to brace the hell out of the corners, or any for that mattter .
Quad-LockUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 04:33 PM
Hello,

I agree that on most residential jobs you can slide down the vertical rebar - the picture is from a seven-storey commercial job in a seismic zone, so there's an engineering requirement for that much rebar.

Georg
Quad-Lock Building Systems is proud to Sponsor GreenBuildingTalk.com
Mark RossUser is Offline
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17 Mar 2009 06:08 PM
Integraspec is the only self shoring system out there that I know of, I hate using wood, call them to discuss, I know they are available in europe and manufactured over there.

Mark Ross
b moffatUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 01:24 AM
Another option for a knock -down system is the Hobbs vertical system (www.hobbsbuildingsystems.com) Metal ereinforced corner at any angle(can not blow them out), vertical panels made to length, uses 40% less concrete than a 6" core block and goes up with half the labour. Soon a video will be on the web site showing one Hobbs installer against two block installers. I am in Canada but the foam component of the product can be built where ever there is an eps plant.
jablootyUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 02:57 PM
For your consideration we offer an economic knock-down system that is manufactured in the US and can ship into your area.
For more information please visit www.liteform.com/index1.html
Please contact me regarding information on Lite-Form ICF systems including, Lite-Form, Fold-Form, Lite-Deck or Lite-Deck Tilt.
MDiverUser is Offline
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20 Mar 2009 02:45 PM
I can't comment on all knock down/non-knock down systems. I only use quad-lock now and having nothing but good things to say about the product. The product is easy to use, I've never used additional bracing on corners (or anywhere) and I find that the product is extremely adaptable. you can build your own "T"s or starnge angles. as stated by George, we slide our vertical bar down into the form. I'm not going to say that it is better than brand xyz, but I really enjoy using the product and don't foresee a switch anytime soon.

Why do people have a dislike for a knockdown system?
Paul StevensUser is Offline
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20 Mar 2009 07:01 PM
I have tried a different "put it together yourself system" and was not impressed at all. After we unloaded the truck my crew spent time assembling the blocks, lining up the panels then sliding in the webs,this was a pain in the ass. For me, nothing beats taking a 'block' right of off the truck and being able to install it immediately. I realize that in Quad-Lock's situation on that 7 story with all that rebar detail a knock down system is necessary but how often does that happen. In such a competitive market I just can not charge a price to put the block together as well as instal it!
Paul Stevens
The SipperUser is Offline
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20 Mar 2009 08:15 PM
Back on 1-6-09, I tried to get my plug in for TF (The Vertical System) as a "knockdown system to look at" with no detail as to why anyone should consider it over other choices. I and others have presented some of these advantages in previous threads, and, as with all of these other great products, all of the info is "on their website" www.tfsystem.com

But as this thread continues I thought that it wouldn't hurt to summerize just a few of the most unique advantages of this particular system:
1. Components can be ordered to exact plate heights (less waste, saves labor time and $$ in many cases, eg 9'walls)
2. Eliminates the possibility of floating and settling
3. Requires less overall bracing than many systems (Does require corner bracing but not very difficult)
4. Fewer splice cuts, but, when required, no cutting through plasitic or metal ties
5. Overall less jobsite waste
6. Can install one side at a time, allowing all rebar to be installed at the same time, if desired.
7. Allows access to interior of walls after installation: To remove debris, add rebar if necessary, allow inspection, etc.
8. Ships flat for more cost effective, efficient, delivery. Plastic and steel components ship from Green Bay, Wi but foam panels
may be shipped from "partner" EPS plants located throughout the US (LEED points for "proximity to jobsite" in many cases)

It would be interesting to hear from some of the ICF pros who have used TF to see if they would actually make a statement regarding the speed of installation of this system vs blocks. I'm thinking that this may have already occured in a previous thread, but I'm not sure. My contractor/business associate has made this point on several ocassions but he only had experience with one "block" before he started using TF, and he's only done 3 TF jobs. So, since we are new distributors for
this product, I wouldn't expect that story to carry much weight but give us some time, and we'll have some projects to talk about.

One of our regular contributors to this forum recently posted a comment, something to the effect, that he doubted that the "vertical system" would do any better than 25/75% against "blocks".......................We'll take it!



The Sipper
irnivekUser is Offline
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20 Mar 2009 11:41 PM
I'm with you Paul! Talk about a pain in the ass, how about when you sit on a knockdown block when having lunch!

And corners are the bane of most knockdowns, so I would have to pick Greenblocks G-blox as my knockdown pick. It sets very rigid and uses the standard fixed corner. The knockdown is also interchangeable with the fixed system which is helpful when you just need to make a few forms to finish a job. One can stock some panels and different webs and have some versatility.

As for most knockdowns, we say "If they Fold flat, there is more of a tendency for them to pour flat." Which is why they need formloc, which is just added expense and labor. again, IMHO

But maybe we should let the sales people decide instead of quality installers.

Kevin
The SipperUser is Offline
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11 Apr 2009 03:56 PM
Ouch! That last comment from irnivek kinda hurt. However, I was going to pass on responding but had a little time today.

All I did was respond to the original post which asked specifically "which knock down system do you prefer?" I'm not sure why my response generated that little "dig" about salespeople. But that's OK, I tell people at the home shows, and "Green" Epos, that TF is so simple to install, that EVEN a Salesman can do it (Ok, OK, so I'm not Installing the rebar, or the bracing (minimal), or handling the pour........but what the heck, I'm just a salesman) (By the way No formloc required with TF)

By the way, irnivik, I'm sure that Tf would be happy to include a Director's Chair with your first TF order, maybe even a "Lazyboy" if the job is big enough.

Cheers!

Like I always say "All ICFS are NOT Blocks" and now I guess that I should add "And all Knockdowns are not horizontal"



The Sipper
DonnerwetterUser is Offline
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12 Apr 2009 11:27 AM
...Give this one to the Sipper! The "even a salesman can do it"; is good for the 2 point conversion. After my laugh attack; I was picturing our friends and lumber proponents installing TF...with Tesla sitting in the director's chair (the lazy boy no less) contemplating the next post...under the new name of "Sipper-was-right" :)

Klemenv

Might want to check out Isomax-terrasol from Luxembourg as well. I know that they are well represented through-out both Western and Eastern Europe.
tesla-was-rightUser is Offline
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13 Apr 2009 01:46 PM
with Tesla sitting in the director's chair (the lazy boy no less) contemplating the next post...under the new name of "Sipper-was-right" :)

I would not hold my breath on that (unless you live in a embalming fluid/firewood house then I would have you hold your breath for other reasons)
Koolaid Sipper is my friend and I am his.  As long as his ignorange is not fully embraced he can learn that new and better products are on the way.  Before I shocked him into looking at things he surely did not know about the formaldehyde issue, otherwise his the knowleddge would surely have led him to "SIP to Excess"  He needs some time to assimilate this new information and then he can deal with the firewood aspect and the bug issues and the mold and mildew issues, etc, etc,
My total point is just to get people to look.  If it is good enough for the girls they run with then that is fine.  As I also am known to say,"As long as stupid can be insured, people will build stupid."
Sipper is just a guy trying to make a living--he is not the problem.  As long as he is not building stick houses that will not last as long as the mortgage he is part of the evolving solution.

Sorry to leave you without the benefit of my input for a while, I was traveling.  I am back in the country for a while now so you can breath easier--unless of course-----
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