Check out this system and weigh in.

One thing I see, they recommend cement board instead of drywall, but of course cement board could be installed on ICFs too.

Also Allwall's 1" and 1" wall would not be as strong as even a 4" ICF.

Allwall's advertising is misleading; it says it "is the best of 16 walls tested" but later admitted "the Testing Company doesn't know the All Wall System exists"

But how is it formed? The cement board? How are lintels made? How are floor, roof connections made? Can it support a precast or cast in place concrete floor? How about basements?

Just took a lookse at the allwall website....HMMM gotta agree - misleading to say the least. I have been in the ICF industry for over 17 years now and it is not surprising to see the "we are better than ICF's" johnny come lately systems take their shot. At least they are using ICF's as the systems to beat.

All Wall website is not advertising, it is informing. All Wall points out that All Wall utilizes the method C-I-C that the ORNL proves is the best. Nothing is hidden in the All Wall website, you guys are just seeing what you want.
I have been in the ICF industry since 1991 and built the first ICF home that I designed and signed and sealed the plans then built with my General Contracting company. Guys, if ICFs was the best end product and the easiest to build with and wasn't overshadowed by all the benefits of the All Wall System I would be building with it.

Here is the answers to your questions: Most of these answers are explained in detail in the All Wall website, just hit the builders link on the first page.

But how is it formed? See the brochure.

The cement board? 1/2" Hardie Backer Board (patent covers any cement board)

How are lintels made? Made in plant and delivered to site with all the other panels. Can span 18' easily without support, about 10 minutes to install them. Stronger than concrete block lintels and stronger than the formed and poured lintels of ICFs.

How are floor, roof connections made? For floors I like top chord bearing trusses. This makes it so the floor trusses are installed and sheeted (without middle supports) BEFORE the walls are filled. (IF you want to, you can always wait.) Roof connections are embed, just like ICFs. There is a 6" x 12" tie beam. See the information in the PDF file that is in the Builders Link.

Can it support a precast or cast in place concrete floor? Structural T's, YES, to all of the above.

How about basements? YES, easily exceeds load requirements.

I can answer all of your questions without any reservations. Please feel free to ask more, though you really should check out the Builders Link:

When you keep asking questions you will soon realize I can take your worst 4 guys on your crews and (1) train them to manufacture every wall panel for any house in the world (including beams and columns) in less than 4 hours and the remaining part of the day teach them to install so they can build faster and 9% more energy savings than ICFs.

Donnerwetter: All Wall was submitted for patent in 1999. Patented in 2001. I have designed and built (this means Professionally licensed, not a hobby or under someone else direction) wood framing, light gage steel framing, concrete block, reinforced unit masonry, tilt wall, ICFs and All Wall System. From conception to reality. 'johnny come lately system' :-) cute, but not accurate. I too can be cynical.

ICFConstruction:
You wrote: Also Allwall's 1" and 1" wall would not be as strong as even a 4" ICF.
Post and Beam construction is stronger than any home needs to be for any design wind resistance. 4" of concrete does not make a wall strong, it is the steel within the concrete that provides the resistance to the load applied. All Wall is in effect post and beam and has 6" Structural studs on closer centers than the round rebar that is in 4" concrete walls. The bending moment of the studs exceeds the bending moments of the rebar in the 4" walls. To end this education about strength required for building homes in high wind areas. 8' tall All Wall, as an example provides 132 PSF resistance which is 2.5 times more than 150 mph winds provides against the wall. Wind speed is converted to PSF load. DO you really need a stronger wall? The roofs and windows will be gone way before either a 'Solid poured' 4" concrete wall OR the All Wall System moves. Your 4" walls over windows and doors are about 1/2 as strong as the All Wall System and most roof straps are not tested for 4" wall embedding. Etc.

It looks to me like this system has lots of areas where there is lots of thermal bridging.

http://allwallsystem.com/BldgScientistPage4.jpg

This shows concrete going from surface to surface. Why bother building with a product that puts insulation in only part of the wall.

Could someone else look at the window headers. Looks like on insulation at all?

This system looks a lot better than the status quo, wood framing. I like that allwall eliminates drywall, drywall has always been a weak link. Cement board could be put on ICFs, but I have never heard of it.

I don't see how allwall is less expensive, it looks labor intensive and the panels cost $4.50sf, plus you need to order lintels? It is also not fair to say it is the best of walls tested, when it wasn't.

jmagill: You asked: Why bother building with a product that puts insulation in only part of the wall? The answer is a simple one. How are the homes testing and how much is costing to heat and cool the homes that are built? The most important being how much are the homes costing to operate. All Wall Eco-homes are operating at 70%+ less than the neighboring homes built with R-30 insulation, double pane windows, and 8' ceilings. This is why you build with a product that puts insulation in only part of the wall. Apparently focusing just on the wall is .,. let's say .. rediculous. How much does it cost to keep the homes comfortable, mold free, protected from high winds, fire, termites, fire and be easy to install.

You asked about the headers: Headers have no insulation at all, though I can put it in in seconds. There is just no need to have it as proven by the PERFORMANCE of the homes. After 20 years of Energy Efficient home building I will always refer back to:
ANSWER #1: How much does it cost to keep the homes comfortable, mold free, protected from; high winds, fire, termites, and be easy to install with entry level employees at a cost $2.00/SF of wall less than ICFs, and costs the same as 6" framing that is designed for high wind resistance and energy efficiency that is as close as it can get to All Wall.

Regarding thermal bridging, we have an All Wall Thermal Stud for those that feel they really really need it. My response is we can also paint it pink if you really really want it. See ANSWER #1.

Re: ordering lintels. Block masons prefer ordering lintels than forming and pouring beams. ICFs have to form, brace, and pour lintels. The All Wall lintels come with the wall panels, no special ordering. Same entry level guys install without heavy equipment.

Re: not fair to say it is the best of walls tested, when it wasn't. -- The METHOD was tested, C-I-C. All Wall explains this "many times" in the website. All Wall is not trying to hide anything, remember this is an Engineering site, not a marketing site. It is hard to totally explain all points of interest in depth when you mention them through different pages. I'm sorry if on the page you read it wasn't explained fully. To eliminate this issue I as that you read all the pages made available. It is the HOMES that have been built, tested and are performing "as expected per the tests" that are the support for the statements. This is engineering: idea, testing parts, hypothesis, building homes and testing, analysis .... this is a fair statement!

Thanks for asking the questions. The hard part isn't me answering them, it's getting people to hear the answers that goes against what they want to hear. I've spoken to this issue, the issue of builders not hearing, at the University of Florida as well as AIA chapter meetings. Don't kill the messenger/teacher. Always feel free to ask any questions and REMEMBER OUR mission is to:
Build Better for the People of the World.

If you can build the "best you can build" using ICFs then do it!

John; By using a concrete transverse; we were able to create many stay-in-place (both insulated, lop-sided and non-insulated) forms. Amongst those were 1.) a jiffy lube building (fiberglass - 6" concrete - 2" EPS) in Onterio, CA. - 1997; 2.) A 220ft 10 feet high wall for the city of Burbank - power and water (3/8" minerite - 6" concrete - 3/8" minerite) - 2003, and 3.) A "few" retaining walls using both Hardie-plank and Hardie-board - from 1994 thru 1999 (we still build them - but with MgO2 board). Other panels already used include Tectum, Heraglit, Glastec and even OSB. - some have proven to be viable and efficient and others not.

Sorry for being a little cynical in the last post - but having read so many "we are better than" (instead of "we are different from") posts of "other" products; comparing themselves to ICF's, sarcasum must have gotten the better of me.

Even though we manufacture our own ICF; we have the highest respect for our colleges (not competitors) in the ICF industry as well as most others; which are engaged in the manufacturing and construction of efficient alternative exterior building methods other then conventional.

I get it now, the old "baffle them with bullcrap"'' sales speech.

If I just keep talking they won't be able to see the holes in my speil.

"Regarding thermal bridging, we have an All Wall Thermal Stud for those that feel they really really need it. My response is we can also paint it pink if you really really want it. See ANSWER #1."

This quote is priceless, what does color have to do with proper insulation practises.

We all know that leaving concrete beams spanning from interior living space to exterior wall just bleeds heat and inflates energy costs.

Have to agree. Very lame reply to a legitimate question.  But it goes with the lame website.
Post & beam style ICF will always suffer from little or no insulation at the posts.
I believe a more honest answer would be that this system is really not intended in areas with cold temperatures. Seems to be mostly Florida homes. Might work there?

Also wonder about voids in 1" pour!!!


I understand that thermal mass should be inside and the benefit of thermal mass in ICFs is minimal.

Why not just stick with a standard 6"-8" poured wall and add exterior insulation to R-20+ with exposed concrete on the inside?

The sad thing is that most of his customers may never see this website and be able to make an informed decsion about his product.

I will make a prediction. He won't last long on this forum. I know the good contractors will not bad mouth him( his website does that) but informed consumers such as I will fly the bullcrap flag whenever we can.

He should have picked a forum that was less informed. Now everytime someone googles his system, they will see these posts.

Is there more than one page at allwallsystem.com? If so, they don't show up in Firefox.

There are many pages. You have to go in the back way.

google allwallsystem and hit the link for "more results"

Or try this   http://www.allwallsystem.com/Page2.htm

So you still didn't get this information: RichColorado, pay attention here, please.
All Wall puts insulation in the beam and lintel areas of the USA that need it.
All Wall puts insulation in the columns in areas that need it.

The answer was just so easy you missed it. You guys are following the normal builders protocol, resistant to change even when it is better. Now you want me to define better, right? OK, here:
allwallsystem.com/design/allwallOverICFs.html

AND, those of you who didn't understand the paint it pink statement. Here, let me help you: it means it is irrelevant! Just like having the insulation in the beam all around the house in most areas of the USA, when only a portion of the beams around the house can be in the full sun at a time. How are the built homes performing? PERIOD, this is all that matters.

Let me help you understand your statements:
I get it now, the old "baffle them with bullcrap"'' sales speech.
If I just keep talking they won't be able to see the holes in my speil.
Immature and I challenge you to find ONE hole in the knowledge I have offered you. Well, not the person that made the statement it seems to be above his understanding, but any others can feel free to comment.

I HOPE that people google my site and see this dialogue. They will learn what is important in building an energy efficient, most mold resistant, most pest resistant, easier to construct method of construction that is backed by professional engineering, not some guys frustrated that the method of construction they are using doesn't compete with the All Wall System's benefits and ease of use, not to mention that All Wall costs less and saves more energy. As well, they will learn that "some" people posting in this particular topic forum are not educable.

The proof that All Wall is a great product is easy to see. Thank you for all your comments and derogatory remarks. I like it when people get mad when I tell them the truth. It means they were paying some attention. Not that the people that get mad are capable of learning anything. But it's cute when their face gets Red and they get their feathers ruffled.

I particularly like the comment about the pages of the website. Couldn't find the second page, the brochure, the benefits page, and this educated consumer is expecting to influence someone to build with a better system than the All Wall System? Let me help. Start with page one, OK? www.allwallsystem.com sign it. Hit the link that says: HOME BUILDERS LINK.

Don't be afraid to sign in guys, I won't send you email that you can't just unsubscribe by hitting one button and then never receive any more educational materials. I've not sent anything since I put up the sign in sheet. I just like seeing how people from New Zealand to Dubai, to Russia, and all across the USA and Canada are viewing the site. I'm not out to get you! I'm out to help the people that would like ALL the information necessary to build the best home for them.

Any of you that have commented negatively, please let's compare your experience, your knowledge, your professional licenses, you building qualifications, and your field experience to mine. Please!

I'll challenge a group of 100 (engineers, ICF suppliers, and builders and about 10 "informed consumer types because these guys have to be told 2-3 times") in any group setting you want. I'll answer all their questions, and prove what I have tried to explain to you guys here. Then, maybe, they can hold jmagill's hand and explain to him that which he is trying not to see! ;-)

The All Wall System welcomes all challenges!! Especially from POORLY informed consumers. :-)

If you have don't want to use the All Wall System, OK. I'll help you build the best with whatever wall method you want to use. But, when you ask me what wall to use to get the most energy savings and more benefits than any other ONE wall constructing method can give you, I will have to tell you the truth, build with the All Wall System.

In closing, this forum is for GreenBuildingTalk, am I correct. This forum is perfect for the All Wall System.

Green-Sustainable-Energy efficient with the benefit of being the easiest to install and costs less money than ICFs. Can you tell I'm loving this!! :-)

You can even contact me by my direct email from the All Wall website if you would like to use language not suitable for this forum. Have fun - Gain knowledge - Build Better for the People.

Maybe if I t y p e d s l o w e r f o r j....... h e w o u l d s e e a l l t h e w o r d s and remember them.

No need to hold my hand.

Explain here in front of everyone the following statement. The bolded areas

AND, those of you who didn't understand the paint it pink statement. Here, let me help you: it means it is irrelevant! Just like having the insulation in the beam all around the house in most areas of the USA, when only a portion of the beams around the house can be in the full sun at a time. How are the built homes performing? PERIOD, this is all that matters.

Are you saying that there is no need for insulation in certain areas of the home? Are you saying it is irrelevant? What does sun have to do with no insulation?

"Let me help you understand your statements:
I get it now, the old "baffle them with bullcrap"'' sales speech.
If I just keep talking they won't be able to see the holes in my speil.
Immature and I challenge you to find ONE hole in the knowledge I have offered you. Well, not the person that made the statement it seems to be above his understanding, but any others can feel free to comment"

One hole! How about a few

You are not providing a real CIC system. A real CIC system has an insulation layer between all interior and exterior surfaces.

Your website shows corner beams that contain no insulation.
Your website shows window headers with no insulation.
Your website shows insulation stopping below the top of the wall where the roof is attached.

http://www.allwallsystem.com/la01/index.html

I have been looking at the pictures. Is that metal studs there? Looks like lots of thermal bridging in every panel.

Allwall is interesting, beats wood framing, doesn't use drywall. But if you use taping compound I think it defeats the purpose to some degree, since taping compoud is very easily damaged by water. use an outdoor synthetic stucco and you would have a flood proof house.....well the start of one. I also saw on the Allwall website that drywall is flamable, I don't know I guess it could be at some point. But at relative terms drywall is not flamable.

I have said many times when a better system comes along I will stop doing ICFs...I am relieved I don't have to change my company name today. Allwall would not work as well in MN.

I would think Allwall would have more success going after wood framing than ICFs.