ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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| 22 Mar 2009 09:52 AM |
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Hello, Background: We are building our home in Kansas (western) with ICF foam basement walls. The sill plate was just put on March 21, 2009. Backfill was done up to about 7 feet of the approx 9' wall in most places around the house on March 16th after the ICF concrete wall was poured on March 9th. It was a cold 1 week of concrete setting before backfill. We do not use drain systems for the outside of the walls here (dry subsoil), but without proper drainage water will go into leaky basements.
Here's our question for the group: From what you read below on the issues we are concerned about, should we remove the dirt backfill immediately in order to reapply new waterproof and test ICF concrete wall soundness?
We are about to set SIP panels / timbers on Wednesday March 25th/26th this week. If we remove backfill, should we wait until after the SIPs / house is framed up? Concerned about the backfill being done too soon....how do we test if we have a wall that is not structurally sound? Our house is very rectangle and there is 3 feet of space between the non-disturbed soil and the ICF outside foam. Very stable soil, it doesn't cave in... flat ground too easy to get to. I believe the front wall moved in at the top about 1/2" because this wall was straight as an arrow (no pictures to prove it).
WATERPROOFING The 60 mil peel and stick waterproofing which is on the outside of the foam block has wrinkles in many places especially near the top where it goes over and around the brick-ledge (brick-ledge built into the ICF form you know) and corners. The basement walls have six 90 degree corners and the peel and stick is sort of spanning a line from the brick ledge corner downward so that it has an air space 6-12 inches down before it touches the foam wall again. The Wrinkles also create places where the seams are not completely sealed so that you can put your finger/hand into the wrinkle. This I think would create a place where water would go into / behind of the peel and stick layer and thus on into the house.
The peel and stick was done without the foam being cleaned and it was a dusty windy day. The contractor didn't plan very well in the way they covered the brick-ledge, corners.... they tried to adjust the peel and stick side-ways in order to line it up correctly from an "incorrect" starting point. I would have done it so as to not create wrinkles or air pockets under the brick-ledge. Also, they made air pockets over the top of the brick-ledge which will eventually pull down the barrier that is verticle above the brick-ledge.
(2) CONCRETE AND BACKFILLING: Concrete footing and slab was done in Feb. After that March 9th the ICF wall concrete was poured into 7 levels of foam forms 9'4" above foundation/footer and 9' above slab. The contractor applied peel and stick water barrier in the next few days and backfilled up to about 7 1/2' on one 42' long front of house wall --- did not pack it or drive on it. I told him that it was probably too soon, but he said that he has not had a problem with it before. I called the manufacturer in Wichita, KS and they said we should have waited 4-5 weeks or for sure 2 weeks.
My thoughts: We have not put the sub-floor on yet. I see from reading the posts on this forum that we should have put the sub-floor on. We have some 1/2-1" gravel around the window wells (Bilco Scapewells called for it) but nothing between the
I have pictures that I can send, they are too big (>100kb) for this forum. I'll post these on our Project Album and send info for how to get to
Thanks for your help! |
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Paul Stevens
Basic Member
Posts:185
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| 22 Mar 2009 10:36 AM |
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Better safe than sorry, it sounds to me like you contractor doesn't have much experience. I would dig it up and have water proofing redone, Send me the pictures of the job and I will try to send you pictures of what waterproofing is supposed to look like when it is applied properly. send pictures direct to my mail address.
stevensconstruction@rogers.com I will return to your e-mail as well. I still haven't figured out how to downsize pictures on this site either.
Paul Stevens |
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richntiff
Basic Member
Posts:108
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| 22 Mar 2009 10:58 AM |
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In perfect curing conditions, i.e. 70 degrees, moderately humid weather, your concrete will achieve about 90% of it's overall strength in 7 days. With cold, it obviously lengthens the cure time. No way that wall should have been backfilled - and ESPECIALLY not without the subfloor system installed to provide structural support for the top 1/3 - 1/2 of the basement walls. ICF or non-icf, it's the same. It also sounds like your membrane needs to be removed and re-done. Don't pay that contractor a dime until you get the membrane re-done by him at no cost and get a performance bond for the walls. If you are really concerned, contact a local civil structural engineer to assess the situation. Good luck! |
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dmaceld
Advanced Member
Posts:860
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| 22 Mar 2009 11:05 AM |
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Posted By ctuttle on 03/22/2009 9:52 AM
I have pictures that I can send, they are too big (>100kb) for this forum. Using your photo editing program resize the photos to 600 x 800 pixel size. Then resave them as jpg. When you save go into the jpg options and set the quality level to 7 or 8, or 70 to 80, depending on the program. You can also crop the photo down to just the area that is important. Doing all three you should be able to get them down to <50k.
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| Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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icfblocks
Basic Member
Posts:196
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| 22 Mar 2009 11:17 AM |
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Do not re-dig the foundation without the floor system in
place. The use of a back-hoe next to the foundation without proper
support may cause more damage than is already done.
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Thanks,
Tom
www.advbuildingtech.com |
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jimmy48
New Member
Posts:50
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| 22 Mar 2009 11:36 AM |
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Posted By icfblocks on 03/22/2009 11:17 AM
Do not re-dig the foundation without the floor system in place. The use of a back-hoe next to the foundation without proper support may cause more damage than is already done. I agree with the above comment. And you should have put the sub floor on before backfilling . |
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ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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| 22 Mar 2009 12:56 PM |
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What I'm thinking now... and thanks for the advice all. I have a sort of a sick feeling about all this but value your support greatly.
I sent pics to stevensconstruction@rogers.com -- and will try to post on this thread.
Here's our schedule:
1) Floor trusses and subfloor are going on March 23rd/24th (that is the plan anyway).
2) SIP and timber frame is coming March 25th (from Michigan).
Should we allow 2 days to remove backfill and apply waterproofing? I talked to a guy yesterday that with that 60 mill water barrier, we should place 3/4" foam on the outside to prevent sharp objects from penetrating the 60 mill barrier... he said for sure with the rocks around the Bilco scapwels we should. I wonder about what I read on this forum about one barrier with an air layer that allows the H2O to drop down to the footer??
I don't think it is harm to mention that the insulated concreate forms are LogixICF. I think they are very good. My forman/supervisor of the remainder of the house said this is probably the worst basement wall he's ever seen (ICF or not).
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ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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| 22 Mar 2009 03:33 PM |
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Hard to find this waterproofing material: http://www.tamko.com/ProductDisplayPage/tabid/53/ControlType/productDisplay/itemid/1592/Default.aspx
Does anyone know where I can get it? |
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FC Steve
New Member
Posts:10
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| 22 Mar 2009 04:54 PM |
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Short answer from the land down under ... we love a product manufactured by Atlantis - a plastic drainage grid which also keeps backfill off the wall approx 25mm (1 inch) they also have a brilliant ag line (pipe to transport this water away) 4 inches by 3 inches or so in size and it is 10% plastic and 90% air which catches the water coming down the drainage grid and transports it away very efficiently.
As the old saying goes ... you can't stop water but you can control its flow and if we can keep it moving away from our retaining walls then we can reduce the pressure that builds up on the wall and the styrene coupled with high strength concrete and a water stop will almost guarantee zero leak basements.
Steve Krsticevic
steve@formcraftnsw.com.au
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FC Steve
New Member
Posts:10
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| 22 Mar 2009 05:00 PM |
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Forgot to add link to the Atlantis Drainage Grid referred to above.
http://www.atlantiscorp.com.au/products/drainage_cell
Steve Krsticevic
steve@formcraftnsw.com.au
Homes from life ... not just 7 years |
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ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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| 22 Mar 2009 09:25 PM |
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Thanks, we are truely thankful for everyone's help. - Craig and Nina |
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Chris Johnson
Basic Member
Posts:465
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| 23 Mar 2009 01:42 AM |
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It bothers me that someone has deliberately made a mess of your project due to inexperience. We don't know all the details before this incident, but I guess the first thing is where did this guy come from, who referred him to you? If it was a distributor, I'd be on the phone to him pronto.
Check with the local inspector, and which version of the IRC you are using, but code as I know dictates that the walls must be supported (sub-floor on or braced) prior to backfill. For that matter do you need an inspection prior to backfill, it should have failed wiithout the subfloor/bracing? Most areas require it to see the waterproofing and weeping tile, doesn't sound like your area needs it. I've worked in a few places like that. Weather your area needs it or not, weeping tile is cheap insurance.
Next, I would be putting this guy on hold...for a while. You said it appears the wall moved, start pulling string lines and measure or use a laser (PL5 would work) and check. Not to scare you, but a 42' straight wall with no pilaster somewhere to help support it, no other additional support and what you claim is a no longer straight wall could be fractured somewhere.
That being said, check the inside of the basement for a jagged crack in the styrofoam, something like you never saw before, it's a tell tale sign of a fracture. It will be opened wider at the top and as you go closer to the footing it will disappear.
After all this gets figured out, then worry about the waterproofing repairs. |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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| 23 Mar 2009 06:47 AM |
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We are in the county where inspectors are not required, but my supervisor/builder (for the majority of phases on the rest of the house) says we should have him come out. we'll get him out there today hopefully.
What am I checking with the PL5 laser? If it moves over the next few days or the amount of bow now?
Here's my general question, how does one test the ability of the 42' wall for integrity if we do not see cracks in the foam? I'll be out there this morning to look at that. If anyone wants to call for suggestions, this is going to be the day to chime in.. my cell is 785 824 3849. |
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FC Steve
New Member
Posts:10
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| 23 Mar 2009 11:19 AM |
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You're not going to like this ... but I've found the only way to test a basement wall waterproofing integrity is to flood the outer perimeter of the basement and sure as night follows day ... if there is a crack water will find it and express itself through then start digging away at the styrofoam internally till you locate the source of the moisture coming in and then follow the crack ... which should be a vertical as mentioned in a previous post.
Good luck,
FC Steve
steve@formcraftnsw.com.au
Formcraft Homes are built for life ... not 7 years. |
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JBACC1103
New Member
Posts:28
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| 23 Mar 2009 10:40 PM |
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I would think that a careful inspection of top of that wall would show if there are any cracks in the wall. The crack should be the biggest at the top and on the inside, from the pictures it looks like you would be able to see that part even with the sill on. I mean it's possible the wall is not cracked. In 42' concrete can bend more than you would think.
I was wondering, why only one sill plate? A second plate staggered on top of the first one may have helped keep that wall straight.
If you decide to add a drainage plane, be sure the water has somewhere to go when it gets to the bottom of your wall. If you don't, it'll end up in the basement anyways. |
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| It ain't easy being green.... |
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ctuttle
New Member
Posts:16
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| 23 Mar 2009 11:26 PM |
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42 FOOT WALL:
The engineer said today that he thinks the 42' wall is okay, but he could not stay long enough (he was passing through) to do anymore testing and just what testing is the point. It is very hard to know how to test its strength. I'll look at it closer Tuesday to see top line cracks. I'm curious about this "concrete can bend more than your would think". I was assuming that no bending is possible but please elaborate if you have time.
SILL PLATE:
Sill plate was not on until about 12 days after the pour - well after the backfill. I have spoken to an architect in the area, and he said he would never think of backfilling a 42' wall no matter its age without top support.
DRAINAGE PLANE:
I don't know what that is, but drain pipe with a pump is what some areas do. Here's one concern == we put 1" rock around the Bilco scapewells and so water will intentionally go down to the bottom of the footer / excavation level. So, since we are putting (35 tons of) rock in there maybe we better get that backfill removed and put in a better drainage system?
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irnivek
Basic Member
Posts:201
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| 24 Mar 2009 12:55 AM |
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Peel and stick is tough to work on hot days and on cold days and when windy and when dirty and especially on brickledges. At least the installer tried to waterproof the brickledge, most stop below it.... the waterproofing needs adressed but like Chris says deal with the structural first. When we use peel and stick we topdress peel and stick seams with brush on waterproofing for added effect, also the horizontal brick ledge must be covered.
What concrete core thickness? Looks like 8 inch.
What rebar schedule is in the walls? Verify.
Good chance the wall was poured crooked? often brickledge weight cantilevered over the center plane of the wall will torque a wet wall, and then sometimes extra bracing pressure is applied to counteract the pressure. The guys go for lunch/wind changes, and the wall shifts and has set in an "overcompensated" posistion.. It looks like the sill plate is straight while the walls isn't. Many ICF trainers institute poor methods to string/straighten walls and walls are not perfect as a result, esp. when the wind is blowing.
Did you specifically check for plump and level before backfill?
Yes we advocate perfectly straight walls however strucuturally a poured wall can be sound while out of plumb. Like the Sydney opera house.
Yes concrete will bend before it fractures.
Best practice industry standard is to backfill after the floor system is installed, however when an employee in Ontario I was paid to gently backfill perhaps a hundred basements without floor systems installed, and NEVER was there a problem.
A double wood sill plate will really not make a wall stronger. The strength is in the steel reinforcement in the wall; preferably placed on the tension side... also curing time as mentioned above is a large factor.
However 7 ft. of dry backfill gently placed (without any immediate high rain /moisture events to heavily compact the soil) while definitely not ideal should not stress a properly poured and consolidated 8 inch wall after 7 full days of curing as you have originally stated.
Kevin |
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Bruce Frey
Basic Member
Posts:338
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| 24 Mar 2009 06:34 AM |
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Posted By irnivek on 03/24/2009 12:55 AM
Yes concrete will bend before it fractures.
Depending on the service application, structural deflection criteria could be L/240 or L/500. In a 42' span, this means deflections of roughly 1"-2". While these criteria are NOT applicable to your situation, it tells us that your deflection is probably not too severe (relatively speaking). You can do non destructive testing of concrete strength with a Schmidt Hammer or Windsor Probe (you will need a testing company to do it) or even take a core sample, but I don't think concrete strength is the problem. If the wall exceeded its flexural strength, it will crack and you should see it at the top of the wall. The crack would be perpendicular (or nearly so) to the wall and should be wider at the interior side. If there are none visible, try wettting the top of the wall. Water will seep into the cracks and will be the last to dry....it makes them easier to see. If there are cracks, the solution would be to remove the insulation on the inside and use epoxy injection to seal them. Unless you are absolutely certain that the wall was dead straight before it was backfilled, it is possible that the wall shifted during the pour. While backfilling basement walls without the ground floor being in place is bad practice in my opinion, my guess is that that you do not have a structural integrity problem....even if it has some cracking, but have your engineer check it out. That does not make it any less aggravating, however. Question....are your basement walls poured on top of the slab, or on footings with the slab poured inside the walls? Bruce |
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