kpudden
New Member
Posts:10
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| 05 May 2009 06:48 PM |
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I searched, but didn't find a good answer.... I am building 8" Lite-Form walls in CO at 9500' I am thinking doing a 2-1-2 pattern horizontally with #4. Additionally, i was thinking a vertical #4 every 2'. I am going to be using horizontal braciing at 4' and at the top (9'). Too much, too little, just right? NO CODES to speak of... Another unrelated question...is it cheap insurance to use the foam adhesive on each course as a blow-out preventer? I plan on having some 2' X2' planks of 3/4" ply handy for blowouts. Thanks!  Kyle |
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ICFconstruction
Advanced Member
Posts:716
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| 05 May 2009 08:05 PM |
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What is "2-1-2" pattern?
Use whatever the manufactures specs or 2006 irc says to for your seismic region.
foam adhesive on every course will not prevent many problems. Why not use an ICF that will not blow out? |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Chris Johnson
Basic Member
Posts:465
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| 05 May 2009 08:27 PM |
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There are always codes to speak of. I suggest if your local building official does not enforce anything and your manufacturer/supplier is unwilling to make an effort in helping you, you should enlist the help of a qualified engineer or at the very least someone in the area that is versed in concrete walls to guide you thru this process.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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JBACC1103
New Member
Posts:28
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| 05 May 2009 08:58 PM |
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In the IRC 2006 section R611 all the info you need is there. The book will cost about $80 but it is well worth it. It is had to say what you need without knowing more details.
Don't ask an engineer not familar with ICF's they will most certainally overdesign your rebar and cost you alot of extra money.
Also your block supplier should be able to help.
The foam glue will help hold the blocks together, you don't have to do it but it can't hurt. They are impossible to get apart once the glue sets. |
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| It ain't easy being green.... |
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Robv
New Member
Posts:2
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| 05 May 2009 09:30 PM |
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What's the soil report say? Usually it depends more on soil conditionss. As well as tricky roof designs calling out for added suports in foundation. Good Luck |
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thagreen
Basic Member
Posts:159
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| 06 May 2009 07:17 AM |
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Icf's ain't no guessing game!
Get familiar with the practices and contact who ever supplies the blocks they will have tables for you to follow if not change blocks. Your building w/concrete not wood, do it once, do it wright, do it safe!! |
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renangle
Basic Member
Posts:192
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| 06 May 2009 07:58 AM |
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Kyle,
If you have chosen a block, they should be able to help you or their distributer. I agree with Chris above, you may want to enlist the advice of a qualified engineer. If you are a builder, getting the advice of an engineer could introduce them to ICF and create future opportunities...plus you get that peace of mind-liability issue removed!
I would guess that you are making your bracing out of wood and do not have access to proper ICF bracing? Does the distributor/manufacture have bracing to rent? Is there another block company around that has better support/bracing that can be rented. Depending on the design of the house (corners, etc) it could be somewhat tricky I think.
renangle
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JakeG
New Member
Posts:26
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| 06 May 2009 08:02 AM |
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Hello,
These are all great posts, especially Chris' and thagreen. Your supplier should be providing you with this essential information. On all of my projects, the supplier has provided proper load tables for the walls we are building with rebar specs, spacing, size etc. based on the conditions at hand. I recall two occasions where we were pushing the limits on our walls and Durisol recommended obtaining the services of an engineer - again the supplier had a decent list of local firms aware of the product and it went smoothly. With respect to codes, although you may think you don't fall into any, rest assured, if you are building in Canada or the USA, you must follow certain codes (at least ACI or CSA). |
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icfblocks
Basic Member
Posts:196
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| 06 May 2009 02:20 PM |
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Chris is right. There are always building codes. There may not be an inspector to enforce them but that doesn't mean they don't apply. They are usually put in place to insure a safe build.
There is a Prescriptive Method for ICF construction available that will cover many ICF building situations. It is a little cheaper than the the IRC. I think about $35.00.
Most block manufacturers will not make any recommendations today in the litigious society we live in. Too much liability.
You may find a poured wall contractor that will assist you using his experience.
You don't mention whether you are building above or below grade. If you are doing a basement wall that is back filled you certainly need some help.
There are way to many senaireos to expect much engineering help via this foreum.
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Thanks,
Tom
www.advbuildingtech.com |
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kpudden
New Member
Posts:10
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| 06 May 2009 09:34 PM |
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Wow, thanks for all of the replies!
I am building in the Rockies in dry, stable soil with a high rock content...the contractors that i talked to gave me different schedules, differing substantially. The "2-1-2" pattern is #4 rebar ran horizontally around the perimeter staring with a row of two, then in the next course 1 stick, then two again. These are 8" forms...one guy said use just one stick every 2nd course, but the other recomended two for each course?? Again, there will be no code "requirements" to speak of...Lite Form recommends adhering to local codes.
Unless convinced otherwise, I guess i will throw the greater of the two schedules in the wall, just to be safe...
Regards,
Kyle
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ICFARXX
New Member
Posts:40
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| 06 May 2009 10:27 PM |
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As far as how much rebar like most have said you should check your codes but I normally put rebar on every row horizontal and vertical is where you sometimes get a little difference. I know with arxx on horizontal runs they require it to be every other run.
If I remember correctly the last job I did in that region I beleive we did 1/2 rebar horizontal on every level then 5/8 every 18 inches vertical. The walls were millitary bunker rated when done. 8 inch core. Hope this helps feel free to contact me if you have any questions. |
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arkie6
Basic Member
Posts:228
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| 07 May 2009 06:38 AM |
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I'm putting one 1/2" GR 60 rebar every other horizontal course or one every 16" on my Lite-Form ICF walls. These will be staggered on either side of the vertical rebar, i.e. one on the inside, one on the outside, and so on. For vertical rebar, I'm putting one 1/2" GR 60 rebar every 16". The vertical rebar is offset ~2" towards the inside edge of the 8" form for greater strength. For below grade portions of the wall that have any significant backfill against them, I'm using 5/8" GR 60 verticals. These line up with the 5/8" rebar dowels that I have set in my footing. |
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kpudden
New Member
Posts:10
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| 07 May 2009 07:08 PM |
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Arkie
This is the reply i was looking for! What type of soil/terrain are you building in? Are you using the PVC collars for the verical's and if so, what size? What is your spacing on the verticals on the below and above grade portions?
Any trouble or recomendations unique to using the Lite Forms...this will be my first dance.
Thansk.
Kyle |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:275
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arkie6
Basic Member
Posts:228
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| 08 May 2009 12:05 PM |
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Posted By kpudden on 05/07/2009 7:08 PM Arkie
This is the reply i was looking for! What type of soil/terrain are you building in? Are you using the PVC collars for the verical's and if so, what size? What is your spacing on the verticals on the below and above grade portions?
Any trouble or recomendations unique to using the Lite Forms...this will be my first dance.
Thansk.
Kyle The area where I am building is the top of a small horseshoe shaped
hill that is nothing but heavy red clay. It is hard as a rock when
dry, but nothing but sticky mush when wet which is making working on it
difficult right now with all of the rain we are having. I have a full
34' x 62' walkout basement. I will have ~6' of backfill on the uphill
side of the basement. Basement walls will be 8" thick concrete. Main
floor will be 6" concrete walls. Yes, I was planning on using
the slices of PVC pipe for collars - I haven't done this yet, but I
think 1-1/2" or 2" PVC will work just fine. I have cut some PVC for my
footing drain system and a 14" electric chop saw with metal cutting
abrasive blade that I used to cut rebar works great for cutting PVC
pipe and is what I will use to cut the collars. Note that I intend to
wire the PVC collars to the footing dowels a few inches above the
footing. The reason for this is that I intend to raise the vertical
rebar ~1" above the footing and wire in place once the wall foam is
completed. This will help to compress the foam prior to pouring the
concrete. That was a trick I learned reading the forum here. Spacing
of the vertical rebar is 16" oc which works out nicely with the ties
that are 8" oc. I plan to continue 16" vertical spacing on the above
grade wall as well due to wind loading concerns - tornados are fairly
common around here. But the upper wall will be 1/2" rebar vs 5/8"
rebar for most of the basement wall. Other than practicing
making a short corner section with the foam, I haven't stacked any of
the foam for the walls yet. I intend to pour my basement floor prior
to stacking the foam for the walls.
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thagreen
Basic Member
Posts:159
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| 08 May 2009 01:04 PM |
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Arkie,
Why are you using 8'' core for the basement? Was this specified by the engineer or is it to accomodate a brick facade?
Just a thought, if you were to erect the walls first and pour the walls you'd be eliminating lots of labour for your floor poor and all thermal bridging would be non existing, assuming your pouring over the footers and over foam board(might not be the case). The stone under the slab should eliminate working in mud!
Cheers! |
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arkie6
Basic Member
Posts:228
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| 08 May 2009 02:14 PM |
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I was initially going to go with 6” core walls in the basement, but after studying varying options for attaching my open web floor trusses to the walls, I finally decided on 8” basement walls with a tapered top form on the inside top edge to provide a ledge to hang my top chord hung floor trusses. The 2” of additional concrete in the wall is going to cost ~$1000, but this was less than or approximately the same cost as a rim joist with metal hangers or anchor bolts with cut-outs in the foam to attach the joist to the concrete. The amount of labor with my current method was less also. The added strength of 8” walls was a plus considering the 62’ long wall has a substantial backfill load on it.
The brick veneer will be resting on the footing or 8” concrete blocks stacked to grade level. A large part of the front of the house will have poured slab porch extending 6' out from the ICF wall.
I’ve covered my reasons for doing the slab first then the walls in a several other threads here. The labor difference is minimal if you are installing 2x4 cleats on both sides of the wall foam as per Lite-Form instructions. The basement slab will only cover ~6” of the inside of my footing. The outside edge of the slab will stop where the inside edge of the foam for the walls starts, which will rest directly on the footing. The slab will also be over foam board insulation, so it will be floating with no thermal bridges.
I’ve got the clean gravel piled ready to put under the slab and for my footing drain system, but I would just bury my tractor trying to put it in there right now. We’ve had near record amounts of rainfall for the past couple of months and it just won’t dry out enough to get the gravel placed.
Fortunately, I’m doing this all out of pocket so I’m not in a rush and not at the mercy of a construction loan or worrying about interest rates.
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thagreen
Basic Member
Posts:159
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| 08 May 2009 02:46 PM |
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I see said the blid man!
My appologies, wasn't aware of your past posts. |
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Baldwin2012
New Member
Posts:73
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| 20 May 2009 11:16 AM |
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The most comprehensive prescriptive document for ICFs that I have seen so far is PCA-100
Its only $23 and covers literly everything!
http://www.cement.org/bookstore/profile.asp?id=16352
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Baldwin |
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