Hi,

Here are some pics of a basement that might be coming down. in winnipeg, manitoba, canada done by dobie properties (www.dobiepropertiesltd.com)

problems:

windows at wrong height
windows 10" to low as per plan
windows bowed in 3/4" in middle of windows
beam pocket over window with only 2" of lintel

basement brick ledge improper and does not meet corners
basement brick ledge only half full with concrete rest faked with mortar
basement brick ledge at wrong height for 26'feet of north wall for dropped theater room

beam pockets have no lateral barring besides foam in 2 areas
top brick ledge of house at wrong height should be 2 courses lower

concrete consolidation problems and "honey combing"

mud sills grouted on with no steel shims and weak mortar

water proofing installed at wrong height, fastened improperly
3" out of square at worst corner




http://www.flickr.com/photos/supernintendo/sets/72157622016061314/


if anyone else has any input or notices anything more please reply!

Yeah, it looks pretty bad. Where is this located? Would love to know if there were any weather conditions out of the norm on the day of the pour.

its in winnipeg

and the weather was great on the pour day

Is a sill sealer normally used?

not when grouting the mudsills, but these jokers used some mud they probably had left over from a tile job to grout these down. it crumbles out as you walk on it

astro;

Yes - this is not the best...However; I wonder if this is a DYI (do it yourself) job.

1.) Did the owner just buy the forms and act as his own GC (employing his friends and neighbors)?
2.) Was there any support given by the manufacturer - or was it just "I can handle it - just sell me the product at the lowest price" type of a deal?
3.) You refer to "these jokers" ...who actually hired them?

...Just a bit nosey....thats all...:)

1. The company that did this is one of the most reputable basement companies in my city they do 100s of basements a year. The co-Owner was ONSITE and worked the whole job.

2. the icf block was purchased at a local lumber yard

3. the guy i hired to bring me to the dry-in stage subbed the basement guys

It is Logics Block. I am sure they love this advertisment.

While I'm not a fan of logics blocks at all, this looks like a certified loon did this and the block can't be blamed. What sucks is that someone seens this and they think that ICF's are too blame. Sorry this happened. I hate to sound sue happy but I'd get a lawyer.

that concrete looks "off". Is that an icf mix or what? It may be the pics but the agg looks WAY too big. My laptop is old though so the pics may be off. lol

logixs calls for 3/4t agrigate in the 8" form. It looked kinda big to me too when i pealed back the brick ledge. The concrete weigh slip says under "intended use" ICF
hopefully its the correct stuff

I had ours done just outside of Winnipeg last year. Ours was done with Arxx blocks.

Foundation ended up fine with no problems as far as the block work and the pour. There were other issues though related to communication and their understanding of the rest of the construction. They did not have enough understanding of what else was going to be done. ie. Plumbing, electrical, exterior finishing, landscaping, etc. They even tried to make my landscaper do the suveying for the foundation, because "we don't do that". They then figured out how deep to dig using an eight foot story stick. Problem being that the whole site was being brought up 3'. They were 8" too deep. Etc,Etc.

Our concrete mix was definitely different then what I see there. I made sure that the supplier knew they were bringing for an ICF. My agrigate looked smaller.

I found that I needed to be there all the time and continually double check everything they did. I found that the windows were not placed properly, they used 10mm rebar where it should have been 20mm, and used one peice where it should have been 2. They wanted to change our engineers design parameters because it wasn't "how we traditionally do it".

This was from a company that supposedly knew what they were doing and trained others in how to work with ICF.

I would say collect your info and go to a lawyer. Make sure you find out where they bank, what account numbers are used, who insures them, etc. Figure out if the company actually owns any equipement or buildings. Once you win the hard part is forcing them to pay. I have gone to court and easily won, but never been able to collect. That is the flaw in our legal system. You can win but you will not get any help in ever collecting.

I think no internal vibration is the big deal here.
Did they use a vibrator on the walls?
What is up with the tin? are the flat steel(load bearing flange) turned horizontal? Sorry you are in this place.

I was not there during the pour, but i have pictures from half way threw and there looks to be no vibrator. i belive he just vibrated it by ramming a 2x4 down into the concrete.

Looks like this contractor bit off more than he can chew.

Res formwork is a fast paced, unit priced game, with a "speed is of the essence" mindset.
It is driven by buyers who shop contractors prices
 and force construction schedules on them.
Guys who are successful in this game are not necessarily the right choice for ICF's

My 2 cents, ... the GC should do a pre-pour inspection to confirm all elevations, drops,  bulkheads, beam pockets, embedded items, block-outs, rebar placement etc ,
 are done correctly.
If he is properly supervising the job, a brickledge elevation mistake, should not occur.
I can understand how some GC's feel they should not take responsibility for poor craftsmanship , but sorry to say, the GC brought the sub onboard,
 so a shared responsibilty is called for.

Secondly, I think  the Manufacturer/Dealer are also party to this problem, in that they sold product to a new installer without providing adequate back-up and support
 to guarantee a successful result.

I maintain ICF contractors should be licensed, period.

Technically, it looks as tho this pour "got ahead" of the crew. No vibrator.....inexcusable.
Poor mix qualities........poor communication with the RM plant.

Eric,

It looks like you hit the nail on the head. It looks as if an extremely green crew was on the job.

That is why I try to dissuade inexperienced people and contractors from pouring their own projects. Sadly the ICF industry has gone down this path of "It is as easy as stacking LEGOs." I try to tell people that I can teach you the rudimentary skills to stack the block in a single one day class, but I cannot teach you how to properly pour concrete, read plans, decipher engineering, know the ins and outs of the code, or be a General Contractor in day.

I think you are correct in that a General Contractor is more than just a title. There may be some culpability on their part but I don't know the Canadian Law or if there is a written agreement or contract in place with instructions for proper concrete placement by the subcontractor. Sadly our society completely devalues what a contractor should be doing and what a good contractor should be charging. In my state a General or a sub can call themselves a contractor by paying the fee to the state for a license and having insurance and a bond. They don't need experience, knowledge, or know how. Anyone can be a contractor.

I will disagree with you on one point though. You place some blame on the "Manufacturer/Dealer". I feel this is akin to blaming Ford and its dealerships for people driving without a license or insurance, then getting into a fatality accident. Does the mill or a lumber yard come out and check your building for plumb and square before you side it?

At what point do we have to look at ourselves and take some of the blame for what we did. I know it is a tough thing to do and say but I try to look at situations that have not turned out the way I desire and ask myself, "What was my part in this?", then with that answered I can go forward to try and forge a resolution. Trust me if everyone gets their hackles up and retreats to the "protection" of their respective attorneys, I can almost guarantee an amenable solution to all parties will not be found and the attorneys will the only ones getting paid and being happy.

This looks like a good claim for the contractor's insurance.

ICF Contractor

ICF Contractor, I don't see the parallel in your Ford analogy. No offense.

Icf systems are engineered and installed according to the prescibed methods, without deviation.

In this neck of the woods, the ICF dealer hosts training sessions and won't sell block to you, unless you have attended.
However, even tho he will sell you block, a "certified" installer must provide tech support and assume responsibility
for this persons work, until such time as competance is arrived at.

This is roughly 3 installs.
This dealer has also sent complete newbies to our sites on a couple of occasions,
and we gladly share our experiences with them.

I would think this is the bare minimum in due diligence that a Dealer should perform.

Eric,

No offense taken. I guess my thought was how could a manufacturer be liable for what people do with the product they manufacture.

As far as the ICF dealer I think this is a double edge sword for them. (I am a distributor also) As a distributor you always want to see quality jobs that happen that you supported, thats good for business or repeat business. As an ICF distributor I have found for the level of support I like to provide and compare that to the profit margins that are in the foam make it hard to do business the way we like to. When you have manufacturers willing to sell product directly to the end user, be that a home owner or contractor, and offer no support and have no vehicle in place for support, it makes it hard to compete for the older guys like us around who understand the ins and outs of ICF. So when lumber companies and box stores get in to the distribution of ICF, they can offer a great price to the consumer but that is usually at the detriment to the support required.

I know that Logix used to require anyone who was using their product be certified through them but with competitive forces in the market this program may not be enforced. I feel that this is the way the market is heading with what I call the "Wal-Mart" mentality. Many people put no value in what a true craftsman can do and feel that bigger, faster, cheaper is better. When in reality it is not better it is just bigger, faster and cheaper.

So what I like to say is this, "You usually get what you pay for, or you don't." Consumers whether they are contractors, home owners, or whomever need to do their due diligence in finding "qualified" people to assist with their project. When I send a job out to bid, I rarely if ever, choose the low bidder. Many times the low bidder is cutting corners, misbid the project, may be unlicensed and uninsured, or inexperienced. I always look at the bidders qualifications first. Then I actually go out and see their projects and call their references. To me this is only part of my due diligence. The I must oversee what they are doing for me to make sure it is up to my standard and done correctly.

ICF Contractor

Here is a link to some drawings an engineer has come up with to remedy the problems in this basement.

what do you guys think?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/supernintendo/3860601602/sizes/l/in/set-72157622153536454/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/supernintendo/3860602020/sizes/l/in/set-72157622153536454/