This is my first time on this forum.

So there is no question of my transparency, I am the sales manager for the Hobbs Vertical ICF Wall System.

I think that there is no better ICF forum to follow on the net ,than Green Building Talk.

I enjot    I would like to ask for every ones input into creating a PERFORMANCE and TOLERANCES GUIDE FOR ICF WALLS.
Professional builders,installers, first time homebuilder, to those just thinking about building in ICF, your imput  would be greatly appreciated.

This guide would help answer many questions that are frequently asked in this forum.

To name a few:

1-       Resolving issues relating to the quality of ICF walls.

2-       A set of guideline for homeowners to specify when asking for bids on their ICF walls.

3-       A scorecard to look at, when debating whose ICF system is better.

4-       Distinguishing between a good installer from a bad installer.

There is no question that a good installer, can get any ICF system to meet or exceed any proposed tolerances when time and money is not an object.

However, the man-hours required to achieve these tolerances is the key to profitability on a project.

Every business man knows that productivity is the lifeblood of any successful business and its ability to prosper and grow.

No lack of transparency here.

Let’s us start off with these proposed tolerances:

PLUMB

 Walls shall not be out of plumb more than 1/4”/6mm in 10ft. /3m or 25mm/ 1” in total height of any building exceeding 9m/30ft. when measured from the base to the top of wall.

BOWED

Walls shall not bow in a horizontal or vertical plane of wall surface, any more than ¼”/5mm in 10ft. /3M

DIMENSIONAL

Wall lengths shall not exceed +/- ¼’/5mm in any wall section.

DIAGONAL

No more than ½”/13mm in any square measurement.

* When we say ¼”/5mm measured over 10ft/3M of wall surface, this means that same ¼”/5mm is to be applied over an 18”/500mm or a 36”/1000mm wall surface.

This should be a good start.

Renangle:

If what you tell me is the norm rather than the exception, then the horror stories that have plagued the ICF industry in the past (out of plumb and wavy walls) are finally behind us now.

If you would like to start another thread, about your misconceptions regarding the Hobbs system, then go ahead and I will be a participant.

Sticking to the topic of this thread, which is a guide to performance and tolerances, are you implying that as a company, you specify in writing to all of your customers that they will receive an ICF finished product that meets and exceeds the stated guidelines?

If this is what you do, then I must take my hat off to you. It is one thing to talk about it but another to actually specify it in a contract to your customers.

Do you believe that theses tolerances are not tight enough?

What other performance guidelines do you put in your contract to your customers?

I am a rookie, Thank you for informing me of the rules!

I do not consider my self to be a chest thumping salesman.

I don't like them either!

I am not here to promote any ICF products in this thread.

I do believe that a person new to ICF construction, and with no real construction experience, should have some sort of criteria to judge whether or not he has received a good or bad job, other than " don't worry ,I will do a good job" or  " that is the way they all look,don't worry about it"

I do respect the fact ,that you took the time to write a responce  on this thread ,and give your opinion,whether I agree with it or not.

I could read the last font at all.
Rookies!
I have done RCF walls for a living all my life.

I would never personally, or as forming company, accept those standards in RCF, let alone ICF.

Most basements are studded so bows are hidden.

If they are not straight, a good framer can generally make that go mostly away.

You know what they say, out of site ,out of mind.

I agree that when working with concrete and foam anything can happen even to the seasoned installer and that no matter what type of  form is used , ( RCF)any concrete pour can go bad.

Anything on a outside below grade wall, probably should not be subjected to ¼” tolerances’.

If there is any where on ICF wall, where you want the full depth of foam in place, I believe it should be on the cold side.

Plus, it is generally out of view and has nothing attached to it.( below grade)

Perhaps in the guidelines we should tell consumers, what we will do, when the walls are out of tolerances?

Would it be out of line to guarantee that in the case of bowed walls that we will correct any deficiencies with-in ¼” in 10 ft.?

And at what point is a bow to big to fix, without compromising the energy efficiency of the wall?

In most stick frame construction if a wall (studs) is bowed, they can be cut and straightened out.

And if the wall is out of alignment and not straight, it at least can be removed and replaced..

What are the consumer’s options in an ICF wall?

When is an ICF wall so badly out of plumb that the only real alternative is to strap the wall out till it is plumb and straight, is it not?

I still believe that for this industry to go forward, we need to not meet other building systems tolerances, but exceed them.

Things can always go wrong, it is how we rectify the really matters.

As far as gaps in blocks go, is a ¼” the tolerance that an installer should guarantee will be filled with foam.?

I agree, there definately should be acceptable tolerances. Is 1/4" in 10' acceptable? I did a spec home last year with precast walls. Last nite I took a level and checked out the walls. None of the walls were perfectly plumb. I only had a 4' level, but I know some exceeded 1/4" in 10'. It was acceptable to me although I did not put a level on the walls when they were done to verify they were plumb. I strive for perfection, but I am naturally more concerned with above grade walls. I have checked many poured walls as well as above grade stick frame for plumb. Very rarely are they perfectly plumb, and some are just way off, yet it is accepted.

In my area, if there were a 10" poured wall and a 10" icf wall side by side, the inspector would want to see rebar in the icf wall, but would not be concerened with the poured wall.  I guess this is because the icf wall is an "engineered product". I hear many people talking about icf's being out of plumb, etc. I think they would be surpised if they went out and measured poured walls and/or stick frame walls.

For some reason, I get the impression that icf's are scrutinized more than poured walls or stick for plum, etc. Having tolerances is a good thing, but all types of construction should be treated with the same scrutiny and for some reason I feel ICF's would be looked at more closely for imperfections.

Bunt

I am relatively new to the ICF industry. In my job, I don’t know how many contractors, architects and homeowners, I have met ,who are gun-shy about using ICF again, after a having had a bad experience in the past.

What assurances can we give these consumers that the future will be different, if they choose, to go back to ICF to build with?

With green building practices and energy efficiency climbing to the top of everyone’s wish list, the time has come for ICF to shine, as more and more consumers are looking for the first time, at ICF being the building material of choice.

My question is, if these tolerances are easily attainable, as I am hearing that they are, then what is the issue here? Is it monetary, is it the product one chose’s to work with, or is it just plain to much effort.

The window is now, to set the standards in ICF construction, that the industry will be judged by in the future.

Why should we settle for being just average? One should not accept nor allow oneself to accept mediocrity. Maybe, it is just me, but I find that unacceptable, when one has a choice.I have never seen where setting high standards and tolerances, has not been a recipe for success, in the past and or in the present.

Joseph;
We don't need to presonally settle for average, but we also should not impose a standard that will come back to bite us in one project out of 20.
I know plenty of poured wall contractors that are doing exceptionally well without a 1/4" standard; but I do see your point about assuring that next time will be better.
Wouldn't a voluntary certification program which incorporates tolerances accomplish this? I would rather see 1/2" but I could sign off on 3/8".
Jake Vierzen
R-Value Concrete Structures

Jake

Perhaps that could be the start of a miniunum standard.

I like to refer to contractors in three catogrys.

1- builds to just meet the minimum industry standard
2- builds to meet and exceed the  industry standard.
3- stay away from.
Either way we need to have in place some sort of standard to measure them  by.

Let me put it in these terms, at what point should a consumer have the authority to withhold payment on pour workmanship, if there is no standard in place to measure the workmanship agaisnt.
It thens becomes," it is not what I expected" or " I expected a better job than that".
A better job than what!

I believe setting some sort of industry standard, goes both ways.
If a consumer knows the standard and demands better, than at least we will all know the expectations before we agree to do the job.

Let us not kid our selfs here, in the ICF industry, or with any building system,one must be willing to put in, or has been putting in, man-hours to acheive tolerances and  standards.
Now is 1/4"  unrealistic .I don't now ,perhaps.
Is it fair to you, or any ICF contractor, to lose a job ,because there is no measurable standards for a consumer to judge your qoute by?
How would the consumer even know ,if he has  nothing to reference to.
Would it not speak for itself ,if an ICF installer is unwilling to guarantee his work and you are?
When you refer to RCF tolerances, is it not more about, what contractors have had to settle for ,just to get the job  done.
I would venture to say, in todays economy, that is no longer the case, now that they have choices.