Thinking outside the "BOX"
Last Post 14 Mar 2012 07:17 PM by Rosalinda. 20 Replies.
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HskersNo1User is Offline
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07 Mar 2012 10:16 PM
So, I'm just going to throw this out there for discussion and to see what kind of response it gets. Do these forms have to be filled with concrete? Could they be filled with sand or perhaps a muddy, clay mixture? If all the rebar was tied together and tied to the fondation and enough mass was added to make them solid would this make a viable wall? In the southwest they make homes out of clay. Here in Nebraska there are still sod homes that where built over 100 years ago. They arn't inhabited but they are still standing as museum pieces. I'm not saying I would try this for my home but has anyone ever tried this as a test or study? Just curious as to everyones thoughts. I'm sure the concrete guys won't think too highly of this!
Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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08 Mar 2012 08:18 AM
If you can give me a set of drawings stamped and signed by an engineer...I'll build it
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
AltonUser is Offline
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08 Mar 2012 10:13 AM
I do not believe most types of reinforcement will work well in sand, clay or mud since the fill material will not bond to the reinforcement.  However, if the walls were sufficiently thick enough to stand on their own without reinforcement then there would be no need for expensive Insulated Concrete Forms.  Other less expensive forms could be used to contain a very thick wall. 

I also do not believe that you can find a structural engineer that will stamp and sign the plans if the wall is no wider than typical ICF.  I believe that is what Chris is referring to when he mentions needing a stamped and signed plan.  Right, Chris?
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JakeGUser is Offline
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08 Mar 2012 03:43 PM
Adobe is still done in some parts of the world - close to what you are describing. Not so much in North America though.
That being said, I have seen an ICF project from the 1980's where they designed, stamped and built a stress skin panel home. They applied a structural coating (Gemite product) on both sides of the wall and completely filled the inside with a spray type insulation (I believe Icynene). I believe the coating was about an inch thick. No steel. Just to give you an indication - it hasn't been done since, but I think the home is still standing (Milton Ontario area).
It doesn't hurt to think outside the box - it promotes growth for sure. 10 projects (of different ideas) similar to this one, and you might just stumble on a keeper.
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08 Mar 2012 10:44 PM
I've thought about one option where you would build a conventional 2x4 wood or steel stud wall with studs 16" on center. Then install 4" core ICF forms around this. You would need to use a knock-down type ICF form like LiteForm or similar with ties 8" on center. As you stack the ICF, every other vertical column of ties (@ 16" oc) would be screwed to the side of the wood or metal studs to hold the ICF in place. Another option would be to rip 1/2" rigid sheet foam insulation such as polyiso and apply strips over the outside edge of the 3.5" studs to bring them up to a full 4" wide. You could then screw through the ICF foam into the studs with long screws and 2" EIFS plastic washers if needed for additional reinforcement. Just screwing the plastic ties to the studs would result in less thermal bridging, but it might be handy to screw the foam directly to the framing around doors and windows and at the top and bottom plates. Once you got near the top of the wall, leave the last inside course of foam off and blow the cavity between the studs and ICF foam full of cellulose insulation for maximum R value. Then install the last course of foam. You could also rough in your electrical wiring in the studs prior to installing the ICF foam so that no cutting of the ICF foam except for the boxes would be required.
AltonUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2012 09:37 AM
One concern that I would have about the first listed method is that 2x4's have crown bows.  If the ICF wall is attached along the wood stud, then the ICF wall might also have a crown bow.  May not be a big deal if the exterior finish can straighten out the crown bow.  If the 2x4 studs are Timberstrand, then no crown bow.
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Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2012 09:54 AM
I was referring to having an engineer stamp and sign an IC(onrete)F wall to be filled with alternative materials, if you can find one, I'd build it, but I would think you may be hard pressed, I wouldn't want the responsibility for that one.
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
buddenUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2012 09:59 AM
Soddies (and dugouts) were used on the prairie expressly because building materials, like lumber from trees, was unavailable.  And Pioneer Village exhibit notwithstanding, austere housing like this was usually only one year ... or max of 5 because that was what was required to prove out a homestead.    Anybody more serious than that about living in such location would build something more serious. 

Soddies were dank and critters tended to live in the walls.  Cooking was outside ... if you don't have enough material to build a real house, you probably don't have enough to build a hearth.  Roofs were often thatch.  The same descriptions apply to dugouts, except that where I was raised in Nebraska, the water table was only about 10 feet down ... reprise 'dank'. 
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09 Mar 2012 10:27 AM
LOL.

Okay, but were they either green or energy-efficient?
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09 Mar 2012 10:43 AM
Posted By Alton on 09 Mar 2012 09:37 AM
One concern that I would have about the first listed method is that 2x4's have crown bows.  If the ICF wall is attached along the wood stud, then the ICF wall might also have a crown bow. ..

One way to avoid the crown issue is to use 2x4 wood studs all marked with crown high point.  Install the studs with the crowns all on the inside (or outside depending on preference).  Then use the 4" ICF forms with the ties screwed to the side of the studs starting with the outside foam flush against the framing leaving a ~1/2" gap between the framing and inside foam.  This way you can adjust the ICF to be perfectly vertical even with crooked lumber (<1/2" crown).  At the top and bottom plates and around windows and doors you can shim the 2x4 to full 4" using 1/2" rigid foam or 1/2" osb strips attached to the inside of the wood framing and then screw the ICF foam panels directly to the framing at these points using long screws and large plastic washers.
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09 Mar 2012 12:28 PM

Arkie6,

Thanks.  I did not think of that.

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jacktcaUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2012 01:04 PM
You need to attach the roof to something, and anchor bolts don't do too well in clay.

Roger MartiUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2012 04:59 PM
Maybe in the far,far,far North you could just fill them with water and it might work. Or build a fishing shack on the lake for ice fishing, filled with water.
buddenUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2012 09:01 PM
Well, soddies tended to turn back into prairie, so I guess that'd be green.  And roofs were thatch from cornstalks, also eminently recyclable. 

Energy efficient?  Depends a lot on your metric.  Remember that there's no wood to build with.  So there's no firewood either.  Cow dung is the combustible material at hand (read up on your Willa Cather). 

You didn't get tax credits on any of this either;-)
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10 Mar 2012 11:40 PM
Posted By budden on 09 Mar 2012 09:59 AM
Soddies (and dugouts) were used on the prairie expressly because building materials, like lumber from trees, was unavailable.  And Pioneer Village exhibit notwithstanding, austere housing like this was usually only one year ... or max of 5 because that was what was required to prove out a homestead.    Anybody more serious than that about living in such location would build something more serious. 

Soddies were dank and critters tended to live in the walls.  Cooking was outside ... if you don't have enough material to build a real house, you probably don't have enough to build a hearth.  Roofs were often thatch.  The same descriptions apply to dugouts, except that where I was raised in Nebraska, the water table was only about 10 feet down ... reprise 'dank'. 


I sleept in a soddy about 20 years ago in the nomans land east of Drumheller Alberta when I was building the client a manufactured log house. It was over 100 years old at the time and I understand had been in use all that time. The inside was wall papered and you could not tell it was a soddy. Great place. Probably only the glass came from beyond the 100 mile limit.
HskersNo1User is Offline
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11 Mar 2012 12:03 AM
So after sleeping on this my thoughts are:
Fill the first form half full of concrete, then begin filling with sand. I think you would have to add the sand and compact as you stacked the blocks. When you reach the final course, you would need to fill with concrete so that you had something to attach the roof to. I also think vertical rebar would be needed from the footing to the top course of concrete to tie it all together. If horizontal rebar was needed in each couse it would have to be welded end to end. However, I'm not sure that would add any streghth to the wall. I also see issues with door and window lintals as more strength is needed at these areas. So maybe it's more trouble than it would be worth. But like I said "Just thowing thoughts out there. "
Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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11 Mar 2012 08:17 AM
Posted By HskersNo1 on 11 Mar 2012 12:03 AM
So maybe it's more trouble than it would be worth.


Hang on to that one sentence, that is the smartest thing you said about this whole thing
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
HskersNo1User is Offline
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12 Mar 2012 09:13 PM
Like I said " just throwing it out there for discussion", which it has done. Not planning on actually doing this. It's to bad you must insult me just for thinking outside the norm. Many great ideas have come from people thinking "outside the box". At some point someone thought of comming up with a styrofoam concrete form. People must have thought he was crazy but look where it has come. Open your mind, you might be surprised at what you can come up with.
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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14 Mar 2012 07:53 AM
Interesting thread.
My wet dream is to reduce the concrete required for ICF fill by shipping 1/2 loads of concrete and injecting foam into
the mud using an onsite foam generator, increasing the mixer volume by 100% .
Similar to Mearlcrete.
It would take an Engineer with big balls tho.
Know any candidates ? lol
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14 Mar 2012 07:08 PM
Posted By eric monkman on 14 Mar 2012 07:53 AM
Interesting thread.
My wet dream is to reduce the concrete required for ICF fill by shipping 1/2 loads of concrete and injecting foam into
the mud using an onsite foam generator, increasing the mixer volume by 100% .
Similar to Mearlcrete.
It would take an Engineer with big balls tho.
Know any candidates ? lol


Just thinking of trying to prove the strength of the concrete/foam mix to rebar interaction would scare most away. Think we would have a lot of beaver tails singing in the boys choir before we have the system approved ;-)

Who gets to clean the mix truck?
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