If you had the choice to go with either ICF which would you go with? I have found installers for both types. What would your preference be and why. I was told that build block is more but I am not sure as of yet. I am in the process of pricing both for a house build.

Don't worry about the block, find the installer you are comfortable with and hire him, allow him to choose the block he wants to install, this will give you a better outcome on your installation

Posted By Chris Johnson on 18 Mar 2012 10:30 PM
Don't worry about the block, find the installer you are comfortable with and hire him, allow him to choose the block he wants to install, this will give you a better outcome on your installation

I second that. What's more important is the INSTALLER and the block they are familiar with.

The blocks are both top quality. Pete, where are you building?

I am going to be building in the next month or so. Just finalizing plans. One of the reasons I ask is that a few people have told me that build block is more money. The cost of the block is more so the job will be more. How much more I don't know yet as I am in the process of pricing both.

The Fox blocks will cost less. I just recieved a quote for $15.25 plus shipping for a truckload of 6"

Agree with the comments on the installer - find a team you are comfortable with first. Then, discuss with them you interests on the ICF and determine TOGETHER the best route for your particular project. Both are good ICFs. Sometimes pricing for the ICF is more about your location than "across-the-board" pricing standards. Where are you building?

Fox is trying to put everyone else out of business with their predatory pricing. The screwing will likely come later. BuildBlock is easier to install. Find an installer you trust and let him pick the block.

I've used both and I like the Fox product better. One thing that they have that BB doesn't is the block clips that lock the vertical joints together. These came out last year and while a simple product I wouldn't build an icf project without them. Once you use them your sold. Ray as far as predatory pricing last Dec a sale rep for BB posted prices on this site for 6" and 8" blocks in the $12 range. There was a article in the ICF Builder magazine in the past with a spokesmen for the Liteform company stating that the material cost of an icf was $6. I'm sure that when you bought your last car you said to the salesmen that you would like to pay the sticker price.  Oh and for full disclosure I'm a BB distributor.

I am building in NY.

Polycrete has some fine installers in NY, and a superior product as well. Polycrete doesn't require "block clips" and all those other trinkets most ICF products employ to make their systems work. Its simple and straightforward. All it does is work.

Thanks, I will check into them.

There is a BuildBlock manufacturing plant 50 miles away. I can't use them because they only make 6" core ICF's. Last I talked to them they gave me a spiel about not making or using 4" core ICF's in California due to seismic (earthquake) activity. Called my engineer he says that's hogwash. Rebar not concrete thickness determines wall strength according to him. Welcome to the world of ICF's. Everything is a controversial issue. FoxBlock or BuildBlock? Well that depends on where you are located and what core size you are using and whether or not you can steal the blocks on craigslist. If you are anywhere near Phoenix there's a guy out there who will sell you a load of BuildBlocks for 30% of the retail cost. You can probably bargain that down to 15% if you tried. He's anxious to sell. Welcome to the world of ICF's. The sales mechanism these companies use is retarded so used ICF blocks rarely have any resale value. If you can find used ICF's locally, you won the lotto. The cost of shipping one block or the other to your site may be as much as purchasing the block itself. Everything about ICF's adheres to the concept of relativity. The funny thing is if you really take the time to research the products they are all pretty much the same quality and more or less the same price (as was noted by smartwall above). Only one thing in common. Every manufacturer claims to have a special unique gizmo or patent that makes it far superior to everybody else's product.

If anyone calling themselves an engineer told you 50% more concrete thickness (4in vs 6in) has no effect on strength, run away and run away fast. That said, we used buildblock on our home and have been happy with the results. They were stacked in a running bond with the horizontal lines joined with these little fingers and the vertials have a tonque and grove. I aould agree with what most others have said. Go with what your installer knows. If you are installing them yourself, go with the company who is most accessible.

Bruce do you include preformed corners as trinkets. Sure must be fun to field cut corners as well as window and door openings with all the steel in the form. Probably doesn't take any extra time. I know at every thread you extoll the virtues of the Big Block 1600. My big question that I had when I looked at your block was how you can claim an r-28 when 25 lbs of your blocks 32.5lb weight is steel. Don't they make frying pans out of steel.

Polycrete's position on on molded corners:

Polycrete doesn't have them because they aren't needed. Other ICF's need molded corners because that's the only way to make a corner with un-reinforced EPS. Big Block is so strong you just cut and butt the corners.So you don't have to order them. Don't have to ship them, store them, handle them or run out of them. Polycrete installers don't miss molded corners.

You do need to know how to use a circular saw or a reciprocating saw to build with Polycrete. Big Block is not a do it yourself product. It's for professional concrete contractors to build with. If you're a DIY-er, you probably want to use something else.

On the R-value: R28 is actually a typical whole wall R-value. The ICF itself is R23. I am trying to get all the various R-value claims distilled down to one simple accurate un-exaggerated number. Bear with me a little longer and we'll get there...

I'm afraid I have to do a mea culpa. The correct r-value for the Big Block as listed on Bruce's site is 23.5 not 28 . That came from the boys in Canada. And the correct amount of steel in each Big Block 1600 should be 22.5lbs not 25 lbs.. Third grade math was always hard for me. These revisions should make all the difference in the world. One less Chinese frying pan will have to be sacrificed for a icf.

Get over this frying pan business.  You're going to pack the ICF's with steel rebar anyway.   So what does it matter if their connectors are made of steel?

The achilles heel of ICF's is not quality of this block vs that block.  It's shipping and availability.

While we're on the subject, an executive at an ICF firm I was talking to over the phone the other day made a very interesting point.  The commercial market is where the market momentum is these days for the ICF manufacturers.   Not so much residential.

Posted By jacktca on 20 Mar 2012 08:50 PM
Get over this frying pan business.  You're going to pack the ICF's with steel rebar anyway.   So what does it matter if their connectors are made of steel?

The achilles heel of ICF's is not quality of this block vs that block.  It's shipping and availability.

While we're on the subject, an executive at an ICF firm I was talking to over the phone the other day made a very interesting point.  The commercial market is where the market momentum is these days for the ICF manufacturers.   Not so much residential.

Jacktca,

Can't help but jump in here to clarify a couple of things.  

Smartwalls comment is about steel that is parallel to heat flow (like steel webs).  Steel that is perpendicular to heat flow (like rebar) isn't going to make any difference one way or the other - particulary within a conductor like concrete.  Steel that is parallel to heat flow compromises the thermal envelope.  This is why a light gauge steel wall of R-30 in cavity performs approximately at the level of a (C.I.) continuous insulation of wall R-10 or so.   This is now code see IECC 2009 which has been adoped by most states.  

I prefer not to comment on the quality of this block or that block --- however, as Nudura and the main manufacturers there's is absolutely zero problem in the industry in shipping or availability and that would probably include both Fox and BB.   If you want 50K square feet anywhere in the US it can be arranged in a few days.     Regarding the dead end block or block that you can't get rid of -- if you do your own takeoff I take it back at a 30 percent restocking fee.  If I provide the take off and have made an error, I take it back and don't charge the restocking fee.  

Regarding commerical and residential --- yes commerical is growing but your residential buyer is getting smarter every day - expect to see more ICF in residential.

Regards.

Posted By jacktca on 20 Mar 2012 02:07 PM
There is a BuildBlock manufacturing plant 50 miles away. I can't use them because they only make 6" core ICF's. Last I talked to them they gave me a spiel about not making or using 4" core ICF's in California due to seismic (earthquake) activity. Called my engineer he says that's hogwash. Rebar not concrete thickness determines wall strength according to him.

Find another engineer, one that knows ICF/concrete. For residential, a 6" core is the standard. Using 4" cores is OK for maybe a garage or something but residential should be 6".

If, "rebar not concrete thickness determines wall strength", then one can have a 2" concrete core? Someone needs to let the Hoover Dam engineers know they put too much concrete in their design.

If you are in a seismic area, 6" concrete core is the standard along with #4 or #5 rebar every 16" or 18" on center depending on the form.