I was told to just use a rotary hammer to make holes in the wall when you need stuff like communications lines or power lines to enter the ICF house.   My inspector insisted that I make all the holes in the wall that will be needed before the pour not after.   OK fine.  So I stuck a 2" piece of PVC conduit in the wall for the electric cables.   Do I need a separate 1/2" piece of conduit for the communications lines?   Can communications lines share the same entrance to the house as power lines? 

I was told to just use a rotary hammer to make holes in the wall when you need stuff like communications lines or power lines to enter the ICF house.

You can, but it is MUCH easier to insert the conduit prior to the pour. No matter how hard you try, a number of those rotohammer holes will hit steel and have to be re-done. It is also much easier to get the desired placement if you do conduit prior. If I had to do it again, I would make up conduit entrances containing a 90 degree elbow which was oriented to be contained in the interior foam wall and pointed the direction I wanted it to go. That keeps your entrances contained within conduit and within the foam.

So I stuck a 2" piece of PVC conduit in the wall for the electric cables.

Make sure that is adequate for the service entrance. When we did it there was some talk about requiring Schedule 80 instead of Schedule 40 and our entrance ended up being 3" instead of 2".

Do I need a separate 1/2" piece of conduit for the communications lines?

Yes. It doesn't hurt to have 3/4".

Can communications lines share the same entrance to the house as power lines?

Not in the same conduit unless they have the same rating which is doubtful for a service entrance and communication lines.

> When we did it there was some talk about requiring Schedule 80 instead of Schedule 40 and our entrance ended up being 3" instead of 2".

2" is plenty for my needs.   The main breaker is 100A and will be outdoor.   The conduit will be for 14/2 and 12/3 romex wires.    You can fit alot of romex into a 2" conduit.

I have two follow up questions however.  

1. How do you fill the 2" gap air tight?   If the romex does not fill up the entire space what do you fill the remaining gap with?   I'm thinking maybe Great Stuff?   Can it be regular or does it need to be fire proof?    Can I stuff a wad of fiberglass insulation in the conduit?  

2. Am I doing the right thing using Schedule 80 PVC?   The conduit will connect directly into the back wall of the main breaker.   Should I be using EMT instead?   I would ask an electrician but for now I'm just focused on getting the ICF walls up and I'm not ready to shop around and find one I want to hire.    Do you have experience with this?   Is the inspector going to get spasticated if he sees PVC instead of EMT going through my ICF walls?

> I would make up conduit entrances containing a 90 degree elbow

That appears to be a no-win situation. A 90 degree elbow will either be big enough to house all of your wiring needs or have a small enough radius that will fit in your ICF wall. One or the other. Either way you lose. I don't see how you can have both.

Posted By jacktca on 07 Jun 2012 05:19 PM
2" is plenty for my needs.   The main breaker is 100A and will be outdoor.   The conduit will be for 14/2 and 12/3 romex wires.    You can fit alot of romex into a 2" conduit.

You can fit a lot more than the code will allow, especially romex because of the outer sheath. IIRC, conduit fill may not exceed 60% of the cross sectional area. One way to get more wires through and not exceed allowed fill is to run individual wires from the breaker through the conduit and into a junction box, then connect to romex in the box. Or put two or more conduits in place, not just one, if you know what the spacing has to be to fit the box.

My inspector said I can use PVC to go through the wall. The main breaker will be on the outside. Romex will be going into the house. So my question #2 has been answered.

That appears to be a no-win situation. A 90 degree elbow will either be big enough to house all of your wiring needs or have a small enough radius that will fit in your ICF wall.

The point is to place it before the pour such that part of the radius is in the concrete. If you just stick a straight piece through the wall and wait till later, placing an elbow on it will project out of the plane of the wall. It's quite inconvenient.

Other than your service entrance, there are many more electrical penetrations like outdoor outlets and such.

Can I stuff a wad of fiberglass insulation in the conduit?

Yuk. Mouse bedding. I'd use something that seals it more firmly like the Great Stuff you mentioned.

Am I doing the right thing using Schedule 80 PVC?

Everyone from the supply house on down seemed to agree that Schedule 80 might be required for service entrances embedded in concrete, but it would appear that there is some confusion surrounding the issue as the inspector didn't even look twice at my Schedule 40. I can't quote code, but only mention it as a possible issue because I heard so many warnings about it.

Do you have experience with this?

I just did it on my build.

Is the inspector going to get spasticated if he sees PVC instead of EMT going through my ICF walls?

It would be hard to definitively say what gets any particular inspector spasticated, but I just this afternoon discussed PVC conduit in ICF concrete with an electrical inspector and he liked it very much.

Posted By jacktca on 07 Jun 2012 06:41 PM
My inspector said I can use PVC to go through the wall. The main breaker will be on the outside. Romex will be going into the house. So my question #2 has been answered.

Do we have a terminology issue here? You say the main breaker will be outside. Is that in the same box with the meter? Then you are going through the wall into the distribution breaker panel, right? If so, then it is not romex you are running from the main breaker to the panel. It will be service conductors. Romex used to be a trade name but now commonly is used to refer to the wire that is run throughout the house. In that case 2" is plenty big enough for 100 amp conductors.

Now, if in fact you have the distribution breaker panel outside also, so that all the individual wires for all the circuits are going through the conduit and around the house, then a 2" conduit won't be anywhere near large enough, I don't think. Not unless you have only a half dozen circuits. What about circuits to the water heater, range, and dryer, or are they all gas?

Schedule 80 PVC is required anywhere the service entrance conduit is subject to possible physical damage, such as on the outside of the house wall. Otherwise the code permits Schedule 40, the 2006 NEC anyway. I doubt that requirement has changed.

Put a 4" pvc through the wall. Then you can fit any size pipe you want through that hole and spray foam the gap. Put these pipes in a bunch of places. If you dont need them, simply spray foam the holes. Don't forget dryer vents, outside lights and outlets, septic supply, water supply, gas lines. Then throw in a few extra just in case. Put some 8 inch pipe in two different places for an erv/hrv

Schedule 80 PVC is required anywhere the service entrance conduit is subject to possible physical damage

I think what accounts for all the disagreement is what exactly constitutes "possible physical damage".

> Do we have a terminology issue here? You say the main breaker will be outside. Is that in the same box with the meter?

No terminology issue.   And no not the same box.

See bottom picture on this website.   It will clarify things.

http://tj.jjt.partyconnect.me/construction/power/

That's my meter pedestal.   It is on the edge of the property.   It has a 200 AMP breaker and a 20 AMP receptacle which acts as a temporary power pole during construction.   The house is 80 feet away.   The main breaker on the house will have 2 AWG wires as input and 14/2 and 12/3 romex wires as output.    The romex wires is what the 2" conduit going into the house through the ICF walls is for.   The house is 800 sq. ft. and the plans call for no more than a 100 AMP box.   

Posted By jacktca on 07 Jun 2012 11:26 PM
> Do we have a terminology issue here? You say the main breaker will be outside. Is that in the same box with the meter?

No terminology issue.   And no not the same box.

See bottom picture on this website.   It will clarify things.

http://tj.jjt.partyconnect.me/construction/power/

That's my meter pedestal.   It is on the edge of the property.   It has a 200 AMP breaker and a 20 AMP receptacle which acts as a temporary power pole during construction.   The house is 80 feet away.   The main breaker on the house will have 2 AWG wires as input and 14/2 and 12/3 romex wires as output.    The romex wires is what the 2" conduit going into the house through the ICF walls is for.   The house is 800 sq. ft. and the plans call for no more than a 100 AMP box.   

The 200 amp breaker in the pedestal is the main breaker for the property. So on the outside of the house you will have a main breaker panel with a 100 amp sub main breaker and individual circuit breakers, right? Main breaker is used to refer to just the single main circuit breaker, not collectively to the entire panel and individual circuit breakers. I think you're referring to the entire panel when you say main breaker. That's what got me confused. Sometimes there will be just a main breaker on the outside of the house and all the individual circuit breakers are inside in the circuit breaker panel box.

The code allows 40% fill when a conduit contains romex. To calculate that use the diameter of round cables such as 12/3, and the major diameter of elliptical cables like 14/2 and 12/2 cables. What this in effect means is that the real cross sectional area of all the cables will be less than the calculated cross sectional area of all the cables, but it is the calculated area that isn't supposed to exceed 40% of the conduit internal cross sectional area. If you have only 6 to 10 circuits in the house you'll probably be OK.

Now, out of curiosity, what are the 12/3 romex wires from the breaker box connecting to? 12/3 implies a 20 amp, 220 volt, circuit. Just off hand I can't think of any usual appliance in a house that is 20 amp 220 volt except maybe a small water heater.

jeepster: Put a 4" pvc through the wall. Then you can fit any size pipe you want through that hole and spray foam the gap.

The thought crossed my mind. Problem is I'm using IntegraSpec blocks which are 1' high. 4" of PVC in a 12" high block will significantly weaken the block and might possibly lead to a blowout. Especially since that hole is a the bottom of the wall.

Another flaw with this method is you don't want to combine and bundle all kinds of pipes together. I worry that a dryer vent for example will get hot and melt the abs bathroom vent pipe.

dmaceld: I think you're referring to the entire panel when you say main breaker.

Not my terminology.  I went to Lowe's yesterday and the box said "Main Breaker 100 AMP".    They also have "Main Lug" and "Load Center".   I was going to ask what the difference is on diychatroom electronics forum.   This is off-topic here. 

dmacled: what are the 12/3 romex wires from the breaker box connecting to?

Heating/cooling in the ceiling.   Maybe.   For 800 sq. ft. I may be able to get away with a 120V unit. 

Posted By jacktca on 08 Jun 2012 02:08 PM
dmacled: what are the 12/3 romex wires from the breaker box connecting to?

Heating/cooling in the ceiling.   Maybe.   For 800 sq. ft. I may be able to get away with a 120V unit. 

If you can get by with a smaller unit consider staying with 240 volt but lesser amperage. That way you can use 14 ga romex.

Actually, for 240 volt heating appliances you can use 12/2 or 14/2. There generally is no 120 volt component in them. The only time you need to use a 3 wire romex is if the load is mixed 120 and 240 volt. For example water heaters almost always use 10/2 wire. In my house the 240 volt air handler for the heat pump and a 240 volt bathroom heater are fed with a single 14/2 romex circuit.

Posted By jacktca on 08 Jun 2012 01:33 PM
jeepster: Put a 4" pvc through the wall. Then you can fit any size pipe you want through that hole and spray foam the gap.

The thought crossed my mind. Problem is I'm using IntegraSpec blocks which are 1' high. 4" of PVC in a 12" high block will significantly weaken the block and might possibly lead to a blowout. Especially since that hole is a the bottom of the wall.

Another flaw with this method is you don't want to combine and bundle all kinds of pipes together. I worry that a dryer vent for example will get hot and melt the abs bathroom vent pipe.

That won't weaken the block.  If you are really concerned, you could capture the PVC by putting a piece of OSB on each side of the block and screwing it to the closest web.  If won't be a problem, especially if you put the PVC between two webs and not on a seam.  It only takes about 2 minutes to poke a PVC pipe through the ICF.  Take a 2' section of PVC and run the end of the PCV into a table saw and make a bunch of "teeth" on an angle.  Make the teeth about 1/4 wide and about 1/2" deep.  Then twist the PVC by hand into the block.  It will cut into the foam and make a nice tight seal.   Regarding the dryer duct, many of those are made of plastic, so I wouldn't worry about the heat.  Also, you can remove the PVC sleeve once the concrete cures.  When the concrete cures, it will shrink a little, and you can usually grab and twist the PCV pipe and pull it out of the wall.

The point is, is that you can put these in ahead of time and not worry about it later.  If you don't end up using the, just spray foam the openings.

Regarding your electrical service, realize that if you have a 200 amp service and breaker and a 100 amp panel with a breaker, you need to either get a 100 breaker at the meter(since you are only feeding the panel with 2 AWG, or run 4/0 to the panel.  Your 200 amp breaker at the meter won't protect the 2 AWG wire between the meter and the panel. 

Why do are you using an outdoor panel anyway? 

Why don't you just call the appropriate licensed sub-trade (plumber, electrician, HVAC contractor) and have them maybe not do the work but at least lay it out and tell you what they will be needing when they come to your job. And good chance they have short left over pieces from past jobs they can supply you for your job.