West Kentucky

Lets assume that the omission of the dowels is a major oversight and the contractor is on the hook to apply a remedy. What would be a course of action that could correct this? Is there some kind of anchor (angle iron or Simpson product) that could be attached to the footing and wall junction with drilled in bolt anchors (we call them red heads in my parts)? I'm sure it would require an engineer to design and prescribe the spacing, but something like that would be preferable to tearing down the wall and installing dowels in the placed footing. I know I would be very stressed at this point and not at all keen on living in a house that could slide off the footing.

West Kentucky? Isn't that the New Madrid Seismic Zone?

Yes, ICFHybrid that is correct.

Posted By staticclover on 22 Jun 2012 07:14 PM
Yes, ICFHybrid that is correct.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 22 Jun 2012 07:02 PM
West Kentucky? Isn't that the New Madrid Seismic Zone?

Wow, that is surprising that they would not require a dowel/rebar to hold down a homes wall to the footing/foundation. In a major earthquake a home can slide off of its foundation and literally experience catastrophic damage that it would have to be torn down or worse yet, have a wall collapse during an earthquake. Not to be dramatic but this oversight NEEDS TO BE FIXED.

Foundation to wall connection

Honestly, I wouldn't sweat it. The wall won't be able to move inward once the slab is poured, especially if you cut some holes for the slab to flow in to and physically contact the icf concrete. The earth will keep the walls from moving outward. You could drill and epoxy horizontal rebar that will lock your walls to the slab.

But I doubt those walls will ever move. My old 40's home has nothing holding it to the cmu, and it's survived a multitude of new madrid earthquakes, even an inland hurricane with winds over 110mph.

Yeah, as you can see, it appears that the project should have even had "L" shape dowels. People look at situations like this and think it is about sliding around on the footings, but "racking" of the foundation walls is where the first damage is likely to be done. Particularly in a seismic zone. Dowels with proper embedment help prevent the racking movement which separates connectors up top for things like floors and roofs.

An engineer will have to apply fixes that can meet the minimum requirements after the fact. That may be difficult. Pushing walls over and yarding the footings out of there for a redo might be a cheaper fix. If I was on the hook for the potential liability, that might be looking better and better to me.

I'm still trying to understand about the permits and inspection. Are there localities in that area where there are no codes or inspection?

I've talked to several people in the buisness and everyone says we need a septic inspection, plumbing, and electrical and that's it.  Sounded crazy to me so I looked up housing permits online and found that 0 housing permits had been applied for in my county for 2010 not sure if it is not required of if it's just that no one does it, but that's how it's done around here.

Staticclover, don't let Lbear panic you. He has actually no real experience with ICF except what he has read here. While it sounds like your ICF guy screwed up and cut a pretty significant corner, as long as the basement floor slab is poured up against the base of the walls by a few inches, it will take a really major act of nature to move it off the footer. And if an environmental event of that magnitude occurs, you'll have lots of other things to fret about, too.

Ray this is not a basement, the top of the slab will be above the grade.

Posted By staticclover on 22 Jun 2012 08:46 PM
Ray this is not a basement, the top of the slab will be above the grade.

Exactly. He did not read the entire thread and assumed that the wall is below grade, which it is not, an oversight on his part.

In the end you will have to consult a structural engineer and get their professional opinion. With the forum you will get opinions and advice but only a on-site professional will be able to conclude what needs to be done. This was a major oversight by your contractor which might be able to be addressed prior to doing finishing work on the home.

My old 40's home has nothing holding it to the cmu, and it's survived a multitude of new madrid earthquakes

I don't think you've had any "quakes" much more than "low fives" on the Richter scale in more than a hundred years. Those are NOTHING. The big one there was 7.5 with a similar one expected in the future.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 22 Jun 2012 09:09 PM

My old 40's home has nothing holding it to the cmu, and it's survived a multitude of new madrid earthquakes

I don't think you've had any "quakes" much more than "low fives" on the Richter scale in more than a hundred years. Those are NOTHING. The big one there was 7.5 with a similar one expected in the future.

Good point. A 7.5 magnitude quake is 5,623 times stronger (energy release) over a 5.0 quake.

Dowels are inexpensive but provide a positive shear resistance for loading conditions. It's mandatory where I live (Arizona). A homes wall cannot be placed on top of a footing without dowels/rebar, it would never pass inspection/code. Here they would make you redo it. With a wood framed wall you could always go back and drill into the concrete and epoxy in a dowel after the concrete cured. Unfortunately that cannot be done with an ICF wall.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 22 Jun 2012 08:02 PM

I'm still trying to understand about the permits and inspection. Are there localities in that area where there are no codes or inspection?

No codes or inspections where I am building due to my circumstances.  None.  Nada.

I have more than 10 acres, so no septic inspection required.

I am on a private well, so no plumbing inspection required.

I am doing my own electrical, so no inspection required.

I am building with cash on hand, so no bank required inspections are needed either.

We are on 80 acres, but we have to get the perc test done for the septic in order to get the power run to the site.

Still waiting to hear from the engineer. Talked to the contractor Saturday morning, he said they use to put the dowels in, but a building inspector told them it wasn't necessary so they stopped using them. He also said he had built his home the same way without the dowels. He said he'd be happy to talk to the engineer about it and feels confident about the quality of the work.

Posted By staticclover on 25 Jun 2012 03:34 AM
Still waiting to hear from the engineer. Talked to the contractor Saturday morning, he said they use to put the dowels in, but a building inspector told them it wasn't necessary so they stopped using them. He also said he had built his home the same way without the dowels. He said he'd be happy to talk to the engineer about it and feels confident about the quality of the work.

Earthquake zones are beyond my experience but I think there is a lot of "CYA" going on with most engineers.  It is always easy to run the numbers ... and then double them again, just to be sure.

I've had this same discussion with several engineers.  I have engineering plans (in the same area) varying from no rebar at all to 3 15m's.  In general the conversation about doweling goes like this:  "Rebar is not technically required in a spread footing ... but I like to put it in anyway."  Likewise there is the conversation about keyways.  The explanation I get for that detail is that either a keyway or doweling is only there because builders like to backfill before the basement floor is poured so those items need to be there to prevent the bottom of the wall from kicking inward.  Either a keyway or doweling would perform that task ..... "... but I like to put them both in anyway".

I have seen so-called keyways that were merely a scratch with a trowel (akin to dragging a 2x4 across wet concrete) and pretty much worthless for the intended function.

If you consider that with a foundation built only on piles, there is only a temp footing with void form between the piles (just to build on).  It is only the design of the con/rebar in the wall that provides the wall strength for those spans.  If rebar in the footing was that important, wouldn't you expect both piles and footing, etc etc etc.?

I have more than 10 acres, so no septic inspection required.

Really appalling. Whether the landowner has 10 acres or 10,000 acres, properly functioning septic is a matter of public health. The consequences can and do reach much farther than 10 acres.

I am on a private well, so no plumbing inspection required.

Plumbing inspections are primarily intended to protect the health of the home's occupants. It doesn't much matter what the source of the water is, although I'd say there would be a good argument that the inspection was even more important if the water source was local and uncontrolled. Even if you think the only people that could be harmed are the current owners, what about their guests or other people who come with a reasonable expectation of having a proper system, not to mention potential future homebuyers?

I am doing my own electrical, so no inspection required.

Ha Ha, not intended as a personal jab at you, but it seems that DIY electrical jobs might be even more in need of inspection than one done by a licensed electrician.

Yeah, "dowels" are overrated.  I'm sure they are just there for the "fun" of it.





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