Just trying to see if I should spend a lot more time looking into things, or if I should just trust/pay a pro. I don't have any real experience with concrete other than fastening things to it. ;) I'm good at building - having remodeled multiple homes as well as doing all the work on a large log lake home with the exception of the 'shell' (the contractor laid out the site, dug the hole, built the foundation and shell and made it 'mouse proof' and then we did everything else from insulation and electrical to HVAC and plumbing to tiling and trim...etc, etc,) and I tend to like the DIY ethos so I'm willing to learn. I had planned to do the same thing with my new ~4k square foot home (~1200 square food basement + ~1800 square foot main + ~1000 sqaure foot bedroom floor) -- have someone else come in and build the ICF shell and I finish the building innards and exterior cladding. But a couple-day glance and it seems that DIY ICF [i]might[/i] not really be that hard either. I mean, those blocks are freakin' lego pieces. For this one, DIY is all about the money... but I need the end product to last forever without issue. Is this something a first-timer can do, and do well... or is ICF walls with SIP roof really better left to the professionals? I should note that I'd like to do ICF spans (quad-deck, insuldeck, etc) for at least one of the floors and the garage (which will have a large storage area underneath). If this really isn't DIY work, that's fine.... it's better to find out than to spend a thousand hours researching only to come to my own conclusion that it's beyond a DIYer.

There is a third option for you. Many ICF Contractors will do 'consulting' work. You can pay them a fee to be with you in the process of laying out the pattern, showing you the correct way to get a window buck in place, spend a day with you pre-pour going through and making sure that everything is right, then work with you on pour day. That tends to be much less than paying them to do the whole job, and still gets you good on-site advice when you need it. Depending on where you are located, I could recommend a few folks.

The Quad Deck is something that I would be more inclined to recommend a professional for, getting the shoring right is very important as is the wall to deck connection. You can still do parts of it, but I would not go at it alone for a first timer. To get a good looking finished slab, you would probably want a good flat work crew regardless. Are you looking to do radiant heat in the concrete floor? And, how long are your spans?

Posted By BrianBaron on 30 Aug 2012 04:33 PM
There is a third option for you.....

That actually sounds perfect. Absolutely perfect... Then I assume they could come in and finish up the roof for me (cranes and stuff are beyond my skills)

Posted By BrianBaron on 30 Aug 2012 04:33 PM
Depending on where you are located, I could recommend a few folks.

I'm located in Minneapolis, MN. Fire away... I'm still in the 'investigation' stage of building, but talking to some experts might be a good call.

The Quad Deck is something that I would be more inclined to recommend a professional for

... hrmph.
I was hoping to use ICF horizontal spans mmainly to help contain sound -- particularly from the basement to the main floor. (the basement will contain my home office [which involves clients consultations] - which I will want to isolate from the upstairs noise of kids and 'life'.... and the basement will also contain a very large 'theater-like' viewing area, which I will want to isolate the noise from my sleeping quarters at other times of the day. Doing actual sound-isolation (isolation clips, multiple layers, viscoelastic glues, etc) is quite labor intensive, not cheap, and still not as good as ICF (from what I've read)... particularly in the lower frequencies.

Are you looking to do radiant heat in the concrete floor? And, how long are your spans?

Yes, for sure. Right now I'm looking at something in the ~30' range max - I'd like it to be 'unsupported' and from my preliminary research, that's kind of the max for quad deck/insul deck.... If I throw in a column/beam down the middle, I'd go wider -- mostly because I could rather than because I needed to. ~30-35 is what I suspect the design will fall into.

I'm working with an ICF contractor, with me doing most of the work, and he is advising and doing the actual pour. I feel lucky to have found such an agreeable contractor. He's also a great source of where to buy various building materials, which has saved me a lot of money.

The ICF isn't all that difficult; there's a learning curve for laying out the walls for best usage and ease of construction. I laid out each wall, drawing it out in Sketch-Up. I'm using Fox Blocks, which have nailers every 8". I made a mistake on the basement in one area, and didn't keep the strips in line from floor to ceiling. No big deal, but it will be tricky hanging the drywall. I've mapped out the area, and will have to measure to get the screws in the right place. No such problems on the main floor- I learned my lesson! If you can have a little flexibility on door and window locations, it goes a lot easier.

I made a mistake on the basement in one area, and didn't keep the strips in line from floor to ceiling. No big deal, but it will be tricky hanging the drywall. I've mapped out the area, and will have to measure to get the screws in the right place.

Have you considered using a product like LePage PL 300 (or similar foam friendly adhesive) in that area where the studs are not aligned?  I often use screws around the perimeter of the board and use adhesive to eliminate all those screw holes.

Hire a pro. ICF and any vertical concrete is not a DIY project despite what some salespeople may tell you. Do your due diligence. Check his references before you hire him. Look at some of his previous work. There are a lot a charlatans out there.

If you have some skill with laser and line and a track record of completing DIY projects, then I think you are better off doing it yourself than taking the risk of hiring just anyone who says they can do ICF. There are ICF builders and there are builders who say they "can do it".

You will want to read everything you can and visit a couple ICF projects being done by an experienced ICF builder, or better yet, two different builders. You will also want to do a couple pours, including at least one in which you materially participate. And, it is worth paying a fee to an experienced ICF builder "consultant" to come out one time and show you what you might need to do differently before you pour.

Bruce, A large percentage of the ICF business goes to DIY customers, in many cases since they care so much about the job and are going to be the ones living in it, they do great work. Are there cases where people should not own a drill... sure, but I have seen many successful DIY jobs and an incredible feeling of satisfaction on the home owners face. With the correct training, a well engineered set of plans, and a good 'consultant' there is no reason that a skilled homeowner can't do the stacking of the foam. Would I suggest they just watch a few youtube videos then order up a truck of foam and schedule a pumper truck.. obviously not. ( <- please read that with a bit of fun intended)

Work with an experienced engineer on your plans for the deck, if your true goal is to have the whole floor in ICF then you will save a good chunk of money by incorporating a few load bearing walls to split the span. If you do them in ICF as well, you can isolate the theater room and the office from sound very well. Splitting the span allows you to use a thinner deck material as well as less rebar and a thinner slab. To do a 30'+ span you are looking at a 12' - 12.5" deck, plus about a 4" slab, therefore a 16"+ thick floor, undesirable for many. Whereas with a 18' span you are looking at about an 8" thick deck and a 3" slab, for a 11" thick floor, much more appealing. Again, having someone with experience work with you on this will pay dividends.

Feel free to email me brian.baron@quadlock.com I can get you connected with the guys in your area so that they can make good local recommendations.

Cheers, and happy labor day weekend!

I just finished an ICF project. I did what you suggest, hire a consultant. This worked out best. He didn't want to do the labor himself. I just rented the braces from him and an hour or two of time here, an hour or two of time there. Used his crew during the pour.

Like most things with construction any dummy can do it after doing it once with a pro. If you have never done this before, I would seriously advise you not to do it yourself the first time. This advice is coming from a guy who loves to save money. I'm a customer, not a contractor. I develop software during the week and do construction on my ranch on weekends.

Now, having said all the above I have to caution you. The market isn't what it was a year or two ago. Housing construction is going gangbusters now. There's some finishing touches I wanted my consultant to help me with. Forget about it. He's got lots of other jobs. He's not returning my calls. He did my job just when it started picking up big time again. Now the market might be such that you may not be able to find a consultant which means this may not be an option anyway.

Thanks all for the advice. Honestly, way way more helpful than I expected.

Brian, quick question that will affect my layout of the home (like I said, still in the theoretical design stage) re: spans and columns

Do you need a beam running throughout (from column to column) under the spans (much like with wood joists and such) or do you litterally just need a few columns and the spans (given they are concrete and have at least SOME strength in the perpendicular direction) themselves almost act as beams...

(in other words, do I need to plan on a beam through the middle of my basement, or just some columns.)

Thanks again, everyone!

LC...I would suggest you might want to discuss that with a struc. engineer about that.

(in other words, do I need to plan on a beam through the middle of my basement, or just some columns.)

Consider the concrete joists in the Insuldeck to be analogous to wood joists and the beam would have to be under that, supported by the columns. Another thing you can do is to throw some interior ICF walls in down there which might help alleviate the need for a beam. If you make the rooms a walk-in cooler, wine cellar, workshop or a soundproof media room, you can get the value out of the additional ICF.

I have the 3" slab with 7" Insuldeck panels that give you a total overhead thickness of 10". The joists themselves end up being 8" deep if you count the slab above. We span 28' at one point and had to have a beam as there were some bearing walls required overhead. The beam has a total depth of 24", so it projects down into the room 14" lower than the ceiling. If you do get something like that you might consider raising the basement ceiling height to 9'. We did that and the beam is no longer an issue. The 9' ceilings everywhere else in the basement are VERY nice.

RobInnc -- yeah, of course. I'm just looking for overall 'basic' answers and concepts at this point.

ICFHybrid -- We plan to do 10' ceilings in the basement (a large portion of the basement will be a photo studio and a open viewing area) so a beam wouldn't be the end of the world. It'd just be nice to avoid if it wasn't needed. I hope to avoid any sort of 'interior walls' in the basement, but I suspect that won't be an option given the floor above will need them. Obviously something for a engineer to answer, but it's good to know that, basically, you treat them like strong/fancy wood joists when it comes to supporting them.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 31 Aug 2012 10:56 PM

I have the 3" slab with 7" Insuldeck panels that give you a total overhead thickness of 10". The joists themselves end up being 8" deep if you count the slab above. We span 28' at one point and had to have a beam as there were some bearing walls required overhead. The beam has a total depth of 24", so it projects down into the room 14" lower than the ceiling. If you do get something like that you might consider raising the basement ceiling height to 9'. We did that and the beam is no longer an issue. The 9' ceilings everywhere else in the basement are VERY nice.

On our 2-story ICF home, slab-on-grade, with an InsulDeck 2nd floor. We have a 24' InsulDeck span from the exterior ICF wall to an interior ICF wall. Initial engineering calcs show that our InsulDeck thickness will be around 12"-13" (2nd floor). Initial calcs show no additional beams are required on our home.

Do you have a pic of that beam? Was the beam a glu-lam beam?

Do you have a pic of that beam? Was the beam a glu-lam beam?

In this case, describing it might be as good as a picture. It's rectangular in cross section, about 24" high and 15" across and it looks sorta grey because it's made out of concrete. You can't see the steel reinforcing bar that is cast inside.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Sep 2012 09:15 AM

In this case, describing it might be as good as a picture. It's rectangular in cross section, about 24" high and 15" across and it looks sorta grey because it's made out of concrete. You can't see the steel reinforcing bar that is cast inside.

So it's basically a concrete I-beam.

What was the engineers reasoning behind having it? InsulDeck creates concrete I-Beams within the forms themselves when the concrete is poured, right?

Is it running perpendicular to the InsulDeck I-beams?

[quote]What was the engineers reasoning behind having it?[/quote]Had to bear on it from above.

[quote]Is it running perpendicular to the InsulDeck I-beams?[/quote]Yup.

I got you some pictures.  The first one is of the beam attach point and the second one is looking down into the beam before it is poured.

How does that beam affect being able to use the tubes in the isuldeck/quaddeck? It would seem to me, based on your photo, that it'd basically remove them from the equation....

Looks like the tubes go right over the beam with no problem.

There was a bearing wall on top of a portion of the beam so we only needed to cross over at a few places like halls and doorways.

But if you fill the entire area with concrete, those tubs would fill in as well... no?