ICF houses in Moore, OK ??
Last Post 04 Jun 2013 03:40 PM by jonr. 66 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 41234 > >>
Author Messages
dmaceldUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1465
Avatar

--
21 May 2013 11:11 PM
Anyone have any idea if there were any ICF houses in the path of the tornado yesterday, and if so, how did they fair?

Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2740
Avatar

--
22 May 2013 02:07 AM
The only concrete structure that I saw that took a hit and survived was the hospital but of course all the windows blew out and the roof was damaged.





Here is an aerial shot of some of the damage. These homes did NOT take a direct hit by the EF5, this is more of EF2 - EF3 damage. As you can see, the wood roof trusses are a weak link, along with the windows, but more so the roof than anything. Once your roof is gone, the interior is exposed to the tornado. With an ICF wall, even if the wood truss roof were gone, I don't see the walls collapsing and falling in as they do with a stick frame home. The ICF/concrete walls would not collapse or fall in even without a roof in place.

A complete concrete wall and roof would be ideal.

I wonder how a steel or OSB SIP roof would fare in such an event? A SIP is like a monolithic unit and can take quite a beating.



LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2740
Avatar

--
22 May 2013 02:20 AM
Another fatal building flaw is that they build the homes with an ATTACHED garage. That garage door is the first thing to blow out and once the wind gets inside the garage it pressurizes the homes walls and they start to fail. A detached garage would be better as it eliminates the weak link of the house being part of the garage. I've seen people drive into a garage door at 5MPH and the entire door fails and collapses, falls off the tracks.
 

The above is NOT from the OK tornado but of a different tornado. It was rated EF1 but as you can see the siding ripped off and the roofing material was peeling away. It is an ICF wall home.
FBBPUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1215

--
22 May 2013 09:05 AM
Garages - it just means that the wall between the house and garage should also be of ICF. Why would you want to park your car in the garage and then go back outside into minus 30 degree weather to get in the house (;=))


Another practical reason for attached garages is that it lessen the amount of house exterior wall exposed to the weather, therefore less heating cost.
insuldeckfloridaUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:158

--
22 May 2013 09:36 AM
huffington post update
our response to article at the bottom....
peter juen
insuldeck florida


Sam Stein
Sam Stein Become a fan

[email protected]

Tornado-Proof Homes In Oklahoma: Possible To Build But Expensive And Hideous (UPDATE)

WASHINGTON -- It is possible to build a tornado-proof home. But the cost would be excessive, and your house would certainly be the ugliest on the block.

In the wake of the devastating tornado in Moore, Okla., on Monday, the discussion has turned, in part, toward how individuals and families in vulnerable areas can protect themselves from future catastrophes of this kind. Certain steps can be taken, experts say. But hardening an entire home is likely not one of them.

"It is possible to make your home tornado-proof," said Larry Tanner, a structural engineer at Texas Tech University’s Wind Engineering Research Center. "But it is not very practical ... Number one, it is extremely expensive. Number two, it is probably not going to be very aesthetically pleasing."

"Is it possible? Yes," said Randy Shackelford, a structural engineer with Simpson Strong-Tie, a company that makes high-strength metal connectors, and an executive member of the National Storm Shelter Association. "But it is not a home that anyone would want to live in."

The real issues with respect to a house's vulnerability involve the doors, windows and roof, explained Shackelford and Tanner. The structures of each don't tend to stand up to heavy winds, let alone projectiles created by the twister's debris. And even if homeowners do install "tornado glazing" or "tornado-safe room doors," they still have to deal with the garage, which is also vulnerable.

To be completely safe, the entire house would need to be "missile-resistant." What this means, according to Shackelford, is that the building would have to be able to withstand 250 miles-per-hour winds, which can launch items as big as a 15-pound two-by-four at 100 mph at walls. To reach that level of protection, one's home would have to be made "with solid concrete, no windows and a steel door," he said.

It makes far more sense to compartmentalize tornado fortification, added Tanner. "You can protect your family so much more inexpensively and safely with an aboveground safe room that has been tested and engineered or with a belowground shelter that has a tested door on it," he said.

Shelters, whether above or below ground, can be installed by a homebuilder or constructed by the homeowner. The cost ranges anywhere between $4,000 and $10,000.

"Just like an automobile, you can get a little Chevrolet or a Mercedes," said Tanner. "But the key is, is it a tested shelter."

The instructions for creating one are fairly straightforward. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) put together guidelines in 1998, which it has updated several times since, titled "Taking Shelter From the Storm: Building a Safe Room For Your Home or Small Business."

Safe rooms for tornadoes, the guidelines say, do not have to be large, because twisters tend not to last long. A 5-square-foot area will likely suffice. The preferable location is a basement, where the safe room can be "an entirely separate structure with its own walls." One can use pre-existing basement walls for the safe room, but they should be reinforced.

A safe room can also be built as an addition to the outside of a slab-on-grade home, the guidelines say. But it has to have proper footings, concrete or concrete masonry framing, and a watertight roof. Built properly, those rooms too can provide "near absolute protection," FEMA concluded in its August 2008 report.

The cost-benefit analysis of creating a safe room differs, of course, based on where one lives. The South and Midwest are more vulnerable to tornado damage than New England is.

In recent years, tornadoes have caused a massive amount of building destruction. While neither Shackelford nor Tanner knew the exact number of homes destroyed by these types of natural disasters, FEMA reported that as of August 2008, tornadoes had resulted in insured losses of more than $1 billion. USA Today reported in 2011 that "tornadoes (and related weather events) have caused an average of 57% of all U.S. insured catastrophic losses" since 1953.

Installing a safe room wouldn't prevent much of that damage. But experts say that safe rooms do save lives. Tanner recalled surveying the scene in Joplin, Mo., after a tornado touched down there in 2011.

"We didn’t find belowground shelters because Joplin is mostly built over an old mine," he said. "But we found 11 aboveground shelters by various manufacturers in neighborhoods that look just like you're seeing in Moore ... They totally protected their occupants."

UPDATE: 2:48 p.m. -- Michael Lingerfelt, a fellow at the American Institute of Architects, agreed that fortifying an entire house to withstand a tornado, while possible, would make that home a terrible eyesore and not exactly the greatest place to live.

"You would have a concrete bunker. I mean, seriously, think back to your elementary school days. The shelters constructed to observe an atomic bomb blast ... that's what you would need," Lingerfelt said. "You can have windows but you would have to have so many layers of glass and make sure the frames were anchored in the concrete and impact-resistant windows."

It would be far more practical, he said, to build a safe room, which can be done on the cheap. And while it makes sense to put the tornado-proof safe room in the basement, he added, such a location isn't exactly prudent if one's home might be hit by hurricanes, what with the flooding and all.

UPDATE: 4:06 p.m. -- A reader in Florida named Peter Juen, who works for Insulated Concrete Structures Inc., emailed an objection to the idea that tornado-proof homes are expensive and ugly.

"They can look like any stick-built house anywhere in the country," Juen wrote. As evidence, he sent a picture of his own home, which he built in 2003 and which he said he's financed, in part, by saving $3,000 a year on hurricane insurance.

"We have been building them for 15 years. They exist all over the Caribbean, Central and South America, where people know concrete is always stronger than lumber, no matter how many hurricane straps you nail on," wrote Juen. The picture of his home appears below.



LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2740
Avatar

--
22 May 2013 10:25 AM
Posted By FBBP on 22 May 2013 09:05 AM
Garages - it just means that the wall between the house and garage should also be of ICF. Why would you want to park your car in the garage and then go back outside into minus 30 degree weather to get in the house (;=))


Another practical reason for attached garages is that it lessen the amount of house exterior wall exposed to the weather, therefore less heating cost.

The problem with garages is that the garage ceiling (usually just wood frame truss) will fail once the garage door blows out. Attached garages are a modern day convenience that is not going away but they are a problem area in high wind scenarios. We had a microburst out here in Phx a few years ago and the biggest damage to the homes was not debris but the wind blowing out the garage door and pressurizing the homes wall and ceiling.




The above is EF2 tornado damage in Flagstaff, Arizona back in 2010. Once the garage door failed it pressurized the area and the garage ceiling failed. As you can see the garage truss failed and collapsed. Of course the home sustained other damage besides the garage door failing but garage doors are an Achilles Heel when it comes to attached garages.

A Florida hurricane rated steel garage door is a better alternative but they are expensive and require it to be braced before the tornado would hit. Unlike a hurricane, one doesn't have weeks or days to prepare for a tornado.
insuldeckfloridaUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:158

--
22 May 2013 10:32 AM
but they are expensive....

icfs, garage doors, impact windows and doors...
i am sick of hearing this...
does anyone think rebuilding moore is going to be cheap?
not to even mention cost of lives lost....
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2740
Avatar

--
22 May 2013 07:44 PM
Posted By insuldeckflorida on 22 May 2013 10:32 AM
but they are expensive....

icfs, garage doors, impact windows and doors...
i am sick of hearing this...
does anyone think rebuilding moore is going to be cheap?
not to even mention cost of lives lost....

Initial costs show the damage to be $2 Billion dollars in Moore. Over 12,000 homes destroyed.

The wood lumber industry is a very powerful and a very profitable entity here in the USA. I remember talking to a lumber rep who told me "off the record" that while they sympathize with the loss of life and property during tornado's and hurricanes, it's a huge money maker for them and they will disparage concrete/ICF whenever they can. He admitted that when homeowners inquire about alternative building methods such as concrete/ICF, he does everything he can to sway them away from that building system, even if it means misinformation (aka lying) about ICF.

Just like the 1999 tornado that wiped Moore, OK off the map, they rebuilt and rebuilt with wood frame. Fast forward to 2013 and they will rebuild with wood frame again. I would be surprised to maybe see less than a handful of homes turn to concrete and ICF. I guarantee you the wood frame industry has sent out its reps and salesmen to Moore to make sure nobody rebuilds with anything but wood frame.

CMU's are weak compared to a monolithic 6"+ concrete wall. Most CMU's are hollow inside or they do a waffle grid type of pour. Out here in Arizona CMU backyard walls crumble and topple over when a car runs into them at speeds below 20MPH. Look at what the government does for a high security bunker, it's always poured concrete walls at least 6" or more.

In other parts of the world like Europe and Israel, masonry is the predominant building method. If it wasn't for WWII the 100+ year old masonry structures would still be standing today in Europe. Even after the war, they rebuilt with masonry.




toddmUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1152

--
22 May 2013 08:06 PM
Tornadoes are not hurricanes. This one was a monster, but it was a monster four blocks wide. 90 percent of Moore was untouched.
If insurers were as worried as Insuldeck, the problem would be solved in the same way that Fla handled hurricane risk. (I.e. skyhigh premiums with discounts for better construction.)
robinncUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:586

--
24 May 2013 10:46 PM
Posted By Lbear on 22 May 2013 07:44 PM
Posted By insuldeckflorida on 22 May 2013 10:32 AM
but they are expensive....

icfs, garage doors, impact windows and doors...
i am sick of hearing this...
does anyone think rebuilding moore is going to be cheap?
not to even mention cost of lives lost....

Initial costs show the damage to be $2 Billion dollars in Moore. Over 12,000 homes destroyed.

The wood lumber industry is a very powerful and a very profitable entity here in the USA. I remember talking to a lumber rep who told me "off the record" that while they sympathize with the loss of life and property during tornado's and hurricanes, it's a huge money maker for them and they will disparage concrete/ICF whenever they can. He admitted that when homeowners inquire about alternative building methods such as concrete/ICF, he does everything he can to sway them away from that building system, even if it means misinformation (aka lying) about ICF.

Just like the 1999 tornado that wiped Moore, OK off the map, they rebuilt and rebuilt with wood frame. Fast forward to 2013 and they will rebuild with wood frame again. I would be surprised to maybe see less than a handful of homes turn to concrete and ICF. I guarantee you the wood frame industry has sent out its reps and salesmen to Moore to make sure nobody rebuilds with anything but wood frame.

CMU's are weak compared to a monolithic 6"+ concrete wall. Most CMU's are hollow inside or they do a waffle grid type of pour. Out here in Arizona CMU backyard walls crumble and topple over when a car runs into them at speeds below 20MPH. Look at what the government does for a high security bunker, it's always poured concrete walls at least 6" or more.

In other parts of the world like Europe and Israel, masonry is the predominant building method. If it wasn't for WWII the 100+ year old masonry structures would still be standing today in Europe. Even after the war, they rebuilt with masonry.






This would be a very good opportunity for the ICF ind. to get great exposure. And the insurance companies might back them because it will cost them less in the future. IMO, they need to send a team there and set up a large tent. Have several ICF reps there. Also, have several large screen monitors that would show ICF’s being built and pics of them that survived tornadoes(walls and most contents) and hurricanes. They can team up with a local sandwich shop and have them set up in a corner of the tent and give away free sandwiches to the survivors. Hopefully the vendors the sandwich shop buys their product from will sell their product at cost. Yes, It won’t be cheap for the ICF ind but only a fraction of what an ad would cost on TV. It would be good will from the ICF ind, the sandwich shop and their vendors. What do you guys think?

AltonUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2164

--
25 May 2013 08:37 AM
I think you have a great idea there.  However, trying to convince the ICF industry to give up money on block in lieu of spending on advertising will be a hard sell.  Although the ICF industry would have a captive and interested audience, it still would be quite difficult to convince a majority of the homeowners to think beyond wood.  Most people and insurance companies that have to pay for rebuilding will think only of the quickest and lowest cost way to build a home.  I do not mean to discourage the ICF industry from experimenting with various ways to get exposure, but if they do set up their tent, then they should be aware that it may take more than one disaster to get the exposure they need to gain a larger market share.  I do think it is time for the ICF industry to get more involved.
Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
25 May 2013 04:39 PM
I thought that the experts were clear that making the main house (vs a shelter) tornado proof wasn't a good approach.
bigsummUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
25 May 2013 07:19 PM
Here's one that did well pretty good...

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Green-Machine-ICF-Building-Solutions-by-Michael-Summers/331587203573139?ref=hl
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2740
Avatar

--
25 May 2013 07:20 PM
Posted By jonr on 25 May 2013 04:39 PM
I thought that the experts were clear that making the main house tornado proof wasn't a good approach.

Depends on which "experts" you are referring to. Building a home that is tornado resistant is an overall better approach in many ways. First, it is "greener" because instead of having the home blown to oblivion whenever a tornado hits, a concrete home can remain standing. Second, a tornado resistant home provides better protection for the occupants than a stick frame home which will collapse during a EF2+ tornado. Lastly, a concrete home will provide less debris to be added to the debris of a tornado.

An ICF or SCIP home would be ideal. One can do a complete SCIP home and SCIP roof, or an ICF wall with a SCIP roof, or an ICF wall and InsulDeck roof. There are many options.



toddmUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1152

--
25 May 2013 08:02 PM
From the site above showing an ICF house hit by the moore tornado: " Stay tuned to see if this home can be rebuilt using teh existing ICF walls."
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
25 May 2013 09:37 PM
If your house has windows, you don't want to be in it when a tornado hits. You want to be in the windowless shelter.
LbearUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2740
Avatar

--
25 May 2013 10:12 PM
Posted By toddm on 25 May 2013 08:02 PM
From the site above showing an ICF house hit by the moore tornado: " Stay tuned to see if this home can be rebuilt using teh existing ICF walls."

The home took a direct hit by an EF5 tornado, all the wood frame homes were wiped off their foundations, the ICF home is still standing. Of course the home suffered damage due to the roof lifting and damage to the interior happened. The ICF walls will have to be examined by an engineer to see if they are structurally sound as it was hit with a 3+ ton truck, 200MPH +winds, and a bunch of debris.

The point of all of this discussion is that the weak link of an ICF home is the wood truss roof and windows. These need to be addressed to make a tornado resistant home. The other point is that an ICF wall home is a safer place to be than a stick frame home, there is no doubt about that. We must also remember that this was an EF5 tornado. Stick frame homes fall apart in EF1 and EF2 tornado's, while an ICF wall home would not have a problem dealing with a EF0-EF3 tornado. Once you get into EF4-EF5 territory, the ICF walls will take a beating but remain standing.
bigsummUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
26 May 2013 09:15 AM
The owner said he felt secure until this happened. These are random steel rods that came through the 6" ICF core inside the shelter portion of his ICF house. OUCH! Maybe we should consider 8" core as a standard for above grade shelters in Oklahoma ? But when you consider the second picture....10" , 12" what thickness is enough LOL
bigsummUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
26 May 2013 09:17 AM
Second pic
bigsummUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
26 May 2013 09:22 AM
Can you guys see my pics? I am not seeing them.
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 41234 > >>


Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 202 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 202
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement