vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 22 Mar 2007 06:45 PM |
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I have a house project to do so i thought i would give icf a try for the basement. The bids were as follows: Icf reward walls $51000. Regular poured walls =$34000. Icf is a good product but not that good. |
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 22 Mar 2007 07:01 PM |
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Vhehn,
Where are you located? What is the description of your basement?
ICF Contractor |
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 22 Mar 2007 07:46 PM |
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western south dakota. 242 ft 8 foot walls,132 ft 4ft walls 60ft int footings.brick ledge.20 corners.2000 sq ft basement floor ,1320sq ft garage floor. |
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yogia
New Member
Posts:42
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| 22 Mar 2007 08:22 PM |
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Posted By vhehn on 03/22/2007 6:45 PM
I have a house project to do so i thought i would give icf a try for the basement. The bids were as follows: Icf reward walls $51000. Regular poured walls =$34000. Icf is a good product but not that good. Hi vhehn: In regard to the quotes for your basement walls, the difference in quoted price for conventional concrete walls and ICF walls seems to be high. You may want to get some more quotes for a realistic evaluation. Also keep in mind that with ICF walls you are getting built-in insulation, and all the other benefits such as energy efficiency, quiet, comfort, healthy environment, ... |
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| Regards!<br>Yogi Anand, D.Eng, P.E.<br>Energy Efficient Building Network LLC<br>http://www.energyefficientbuild.com |
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walltech
Basic Member
Posts:390
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| 22 Mar 2007 08:59 PM |
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Vhehn, the cost for the slabs and footings would be the relative same for both systems. The cost difference for the walls would have to be $17,000.00 or $6.90 a sq. ft. This price difference can only be from a high ICF quote and a low poured wall quote. The difference here should be no more than $7000.00 so keep searching other quotes until you sort it out.
Dave |
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 22 Mar 2007 09:04 PM |
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i am done searching. going to take the poured bid. why fight it. add 1000 worth of rigid foam and i have an insulated basement. plus the poured guy can start in 2 weeks while icf guys are hard to find here. |
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walltech
Basic Member
Posts:390
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| 22 Mar 2007 09:21 PM |
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77 sheets of foam @ 2" will cost $2000.00 and that only covers one side and still contains no future nailers. The walls will create an inside dew point which will accumulate behind the foam, this foundation will never have that upper level feel of an ICF foundation. The cost for the ICF is worth it in the resale alone much less the unparalleled feeling of the lower level.
Dave |
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 22 Mar 2007 09:54 PM |
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Posted By walltech on 03/22/2007 9:21 PM
77 sheets of foam @ 2" will cost $2000.00 and that only covers one side and still contains no future nailers. The walls will create an inside dew point which will accumulate behind the foam, this foundation will never have that upper level feel of an ICF foundation. The cost for the ICF is worth it in the resale alone much less the unparalleled feeling of the lower level.
Dave 77 sheets? i calculate 65 times 18 bucks for rigid foam. dont forget rigid foam is closed cell and better than the icf open cell foam. i will be insulating the outside of the walls. i doubt the increased resale value. i have built sip homes in the past and saw no increase in resale value from them. that said i would have liked to try an icf basement but cant justify the extra cost and additional month wait time. |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 22 Mar 2007 09:55 PM |
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Just for the sake of asking, what would be a decent price for:
- 8" Core ICF Walls - All Materials - Installed...
- 8" Standard Poured Walls - All Materials - Installed...
- 4" Slab - All Materials - Installed...
I know that prices vary throughout the country, so please indicate area, and local concrete costs. I think this type of info could help lots of people! Much appreciated! |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 22 Mar 2007 10:13 PM |
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JC,
ICF: In the Pacific NW I am paying about $3.50/sf for a quality 8" block, at $80/yd of concrete that is $2/sf, rebar I always figure around here at $.50/sf ( I am in the highest seismic zone), labor and pump depending on the complexity of the project between $4 and $8/sf Total between $10 and $14 in a part of the country with high labor costs.
Conventional I typically bid by the yard which is $400 to $450/yd which makes it $10 to $11.25/sf
Slab $4 to $4.50/sf installed no dirt work
ICF Contractor |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 22 Mar 2007 11:26 PM |
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Thanks icfcontractor! I can see that in some circumstances, that ICF's can actually be done at the same cost as plain poured?
Interesting.
Thanks! |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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walltech
Basic Member
Posts:390
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| 23 Mar 2007 08:03 AM |
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Well you are right on the quantities at 65 sheets ( I was using my total sq ft which appears to be garage wall) but I wouldn't buy into better for extruded poly! Extruded poly's manufacturing process includes long term off gassing which you wouldn't want in your house! It also loses R-value over time and the absorption rate for moisture is only 1% better than EPS which is insignificant. As far as the resale value goes yes an appraiser will give you no real value, but you will feel and smell the difference between an ICF and your proposed methods above. The moisture from the cold exposed wall above grade along with insulation on the inside will cause a dew point on the interior that will always smell like an old fashion basement! Why would you build a house of this size and value and go with old conventional methods along with a 20th century wall height? 8'.
Dave |
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fturkdal
New Member
Posts:27
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| 23 Mar 2007 08:53 AM |
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Whehn,
I follow this post. trying to make a sense of other people and just happen to noticed you complaint about ICFs also SIPs I was wondering if I can sell double wide for you. Lot more cost efected and you do not need foundation too.
Frank |
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 23 Mar 2007 11:59 AM |
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Posted By fturkdal on 03/23/2007 8:53 AM
Whehn,
I follow this post. trying to make a sense of other people and just happen to noticed you complaint about ICFs also SIPs I was wondering if I can sell double wide for you. Lot more cost efected and you do not need foundation too.
Frank Well frankie its like this. We all do our research and try to make the most cost efficient choices. When the sip and icf companies can use the emotions of the true believers to extract outsized profits from their customers at some point one has to say no thanks. I will continue to post based on true experience instead of emotion so that those who may come here to find information can hear both sides before making a choice.
"People don't ask for facts in making up their minds. They would rather have one good, soul- satisfying emotion than a dozen facts."
- Robert Keith Leavitt |
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 23 Mar 2007 12:31 PM |
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Posted By walltech on 03/23/2007 8:03 AM
Well you are right on the quantities at 65 sheets ( I was using my total sq ft which appears to be garage wall) but I wouldn't buy into better for extruded poly! Extruded poly's manufacturing process includes long term off gassing which you wouldn't want in your house! It also loses R-value over time and the absorption rate for moisture is only 1% better than EPS which is insignificant. As far as the resale value goes yes an appraiser will give you no real value, but you will feel and smell the difference between an ICF and your proposed methods above. The moisture from the cold exposed wall above grade along with insulation on the inside will cause a dew point on the interior that will always smell like an old fashion basement! Why would you build a house of this size and value and go with old conventional methods along with a 20th century wall height? 8'.
Dave We have to make choices. Even if i were to accept everything you say and decide to pay the extra 16000 for the basement there is the time factor. i can get a poured basement now but for icf i have to wait at least a month more. What is the cost of a month wait during prime building season? |
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ContractorPete
Basic Member
Posts:115
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| 24 Mar 2007 12:22 AM |
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To me it sounds more like a choice of quality. I would choose icf over conventional forms any day of the week. You are right though, if you are on a schedule then the choice you made is justifiable. As time goes on and more Icf contractors come around, pricing will level out and the availibility of crews will increase. Don't let a high bid from an icf crew scare you from considering constructing a house out of icf in the future. When you get a bid that is reasonable the benefits out weigh the costs.
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freakofsnow
New Member
Posts:1
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| 25 Mar 2007 02:30 AM |
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I've got a simialar issue here.....I very much like the idea of doing an ICF basement. However after the estimate today, I'm not sure.
Here's what I am building:
1 story 1700 sq ft home, with the same sqft unfinished basement (for now)
9' walls in basement and 1st story
Radiant infloor heat
Western Montana
main house area: 64x30 (approx)
breezway and garage add: 130 lineal ft of frost wall
The estimate came back at 40k for the foundation walls and the 4" slab for the basement as well at the 24x30 slab in the garage.
I don't have anything to really compare to, but this seems high. Or am I high? |
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walltech
Basic Member
Posts:390
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| 25 Mar 2007 09:30 AM |
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It appears like cost there in Montana and Colorado are higher than elsewhere. I could only suspect that cost will be higher for traditional poured walls also.
Dave |
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James Eggert
Basic Member
Posts:411
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| 25 Mar 2007 12:49 PM |
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It's always interesting to see how people justify either using or not using ICFs!! Here is a situation of not comparing the same end resultant structure between the two systems.
Will the ICF structure cost more? Yes, I know it will. But when you only say an insulated basement, you miss the other facets that an ICF package provides. OK, if you don't want the basement already insulated and stud ready for electrical and subsequent finishing, just say so, but don't just say it's way more costly when you, and only you the builder or end purchaser, needs to determine which end result you want!
How about a few more thoughts, like....with an ICF you don't need to insulate the main floor deck. Add that cost to the the regular foundation costs so it goes up. This could be true also for the exterior insulated foundation and not be required, assuming the proper amount is used. I will assume for discussion that 2" is adequate, but the $18 a sheet once again is not accurate because it doesn't provide any labor costs to install and cleanup! So that portion of the add-on cost is once again not accurate!
I love these threads because the failure to evaluate costs to the same end result between systems is why someone does or doesn't use ICFs. If you don't need the added, and paid for, upfront costs for the features ICFs provide, then say so!!
Saying ICFs just cost too much, because your bid is high(which with the limited info provided I tend to agree with), is baloney unless you clarify your desired end result.
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| Take Care<br>Jim<br><br>Design/Build/Consulting<br>"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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fturkdal
New Member
Posts:27
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| 25 Mar 2007 02:04 PM |
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As everyone knows price defers from one area to other. Also one hat fits all but one price does not buy all. that being said, I like to talk about myself and give you few real life example. This is not meant to offend builders or home owners. My only hope is to show others where ICF contractor stands. You all are welcomed to judge me if I am wrong. Also remember to put your self in my position before you judge. And ask the question to your self. if you were me, can you do it ? For same price.
IF YOU WERE ME? HOW WOULD YOU DEAL?
1-) Fancy builder comes with print, and said he knows how much the poured wall cost. He wants ICF Basement if I can doit for same price or less. I said go do it poured walls.
2- An other builder called up. He is havingn problem with his mason subs, takes to long to finish basement. He heard from his excavator (same one I used) that I put up basements in two days is that true? I said Yes. There are basements we did in two days. He said He wants to talk to me if I can come his office and show the product and give him a price. HE WANTS TO COMPARE MY PRICE TO CEMENT BLOCK WALLS. I said here is the sq.ft price, come my job site see how ICF works and get an other ICF price and call me when you want ICF.
3- Prospect customer wanted purchace price because he wants to build strip mall. I said $ 3.00 Sq.ft
he said to much. i ask heim if he knows what is ICF he said NO. I said if you don't know what is ICF how do you know it is too much.
This list can go on and on. I can complaint as much as I want my prospects and call them cheap but does not do me any good. For that reason I have ICF project from small addition foundation, 4' High crawl space, fire station 50 corners in basement and 7000 sq.ft Whole ICF house all of this customer wanted ICF They got ICF.
I also have modular projects and we set up modulars on ICF basements as well as precast walls and cement block wall. If I could do ICF basement for the same price of others I'll bet everyone of them will be ICF Basement. But it is not posible. Customer makes their own choice.
Frank |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 25 Mar 2007 05:34 PM |
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I pour both conventional and ICF's.
Over time I have found a very rough comparison that I use to go over my figures, before submitting a bid.
These are my keys.
1. Cost of concrete for 8 in conventional or 6 in core ICF is roughly the same.Lower vol ICF mix at a higher price equals regular wall mix pricing.
2. Cost of rebar for ICF is over and above conventional, which has very little by comparison.
3. Cost of ICF block is over and above conventional price.
4. ICF labor is higher than conventional but equals out, when the costs of trucking and handling forms is taken into account.
Stripping labor is highly reduced in ICF's vs conventional.
5. Capital costs for bracing helps offset formwork capital, although, the investment ratio is low vs high for conventional.
6. This only applies to simple basements, 12 corners or less. Complexity adds to ICf bigtime. Less for conventional.
7. Assumed pump truck pour either wall.
Simplefied.
Competitive conventional price+ rebar+ block= or comes close to ICF pricing.
Is this expensive...not at all, when you look at the energy dollars saved over a lifetime.
Can the performance of ICF's be matched by upgrading a conventional basement with additional insulating systems . Never.
Would you compare wood frame performance to ICF's above grade ?
Never, because you could never get a wood frame to match performance in sound, insulation , strength and longevity.
I gave up long ago trying to upsell conventional into ICF.
The customers that buy ICF's do their homework and make an intelligent choice long before they come to me.
And that's the way it should be. Cheers all. |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 25 Mar 2007 06:28 PM |
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Posted By eric monkman on 03/25/2007 5:34 PM
Can the performance of ICF's be matched by upgrading a conventional basement with additional insulating systems . Never. Never say Never. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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fturkdal
New Member
Posts:27
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| 26 Mar 2007 07:29 AM |
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PanelCrafter,
I thougth you were pro Bush. Sorry I meant SIPs /ICFs. and you said Never sy never . Since this post complaint about ICF cost. Do you know any stick builder advertise, DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON ICFs OR SIPs I know how to match performance of ICF and SIP and it will not cost you extra. I do it for same Price of regular stick built HOMES. I don't know any I like hear from others. I say Money does wonders.
Frank |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 26 Mar 2007 12:25 PM |
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Posted By fturkdal on 03/26/2007 7:29 AM
PanelCrafter,
I thougth you were pro Bush. ??????
Sorry I meant SIPs /ICFs. and you said Never sy never . Since this post complaint about ICF cost. Do you know any stick builder advertise, DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON ICFs OR SIPs I know how to match performance of ICF and SIP and it will not cost you extra. I do it for same Price of regular stick built HOMES. I don't know any I like hear from others. I say Money does wonders. No, I sure don't. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Reddiform ICF
New Member
Posts:4
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| 09 Apr 2007 02:07 PM |
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Both estimates appear high compared to what we install ICF for in Montana. Remember that the lower cost estimate you recieved for bare concrete wall would need insulaiton cost added. A ICF estimate in our area would include the ICF forms (including brickledge), rebar, concrete, footings, labor, and the $10,000.00 subcontracted slabs (approx. $9.00 per SF) for UNDER $32,000.00. We do enjoy offering our clients an ICF wall for less than the estimates they get for bare concrete walls. ICF does not have to be, and should not be, more costly than bare concrete. |
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Reddiform ICF
New Member
Posts:4
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| 09 Apr 2007 02:29 PM |
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freak of snow, you have a rather high estimate. I can't understand how someone could figure out a cost at that level. Maybe I am missing something, but here is what we would offer as an estimate. I see that 64' x30' is 1920 sf, but the 2 story is specified as 1700 (150 sf less, so I will base the figures on 64' x 30'. I believe you will be pleasantly suprised at how affordable an ICF home can be.
We would include the ICF block, footings, rebar, concrete, floor ledger hangers, $8000 subcontracted slabs, $500 pump truck, and labor. No radiant heat costs are included. There are no deductions for windows, but the savings in ICf and concrete for window/door bucks is approx offset by the window/door bucks and increased labor costs. UNDER $32,000.00 |
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