I see a lot of posts on here, but few if any mention Nudura.  They mention amvic, fox blocks, polysteel, arxx etc.  They may be ok products but it seems to me (which may be the issue, to each his own kind of thing) that the only 3 to really consider are quadlock, reward and nudura.  When I compare, they just seem to be the easier, more thought out and cost effective systems to use.  I know this may ruffle some feathers, and that is not at all my intent so lets not get into a pissing match here.  I guess to sum up my question; why is nudura not reccomended here, is there something wrong with the product I can't see?  Maybe it is a regional thing?  Is it that it is not advertised on here?  Maybe it depends on if it is a DIY'er doing or vs. a gc? 

Again please do not take this as me attacking "your" product, thats not what I am doing.  I'm just trying to get some feedback on why nudura is not a presnce here or if there is any reason why that product should be avoided or praised. 

Thanks.

Annother you might look into is integraspec. Good all around product! I find is one of the most versatile. Where are you located?

When I was looking to build my house, I looked at Nudura, Amvic, and Integraspec. Only because thats what I knew of having local dealers. I contacted all three for pricing(I already had product info to compare).The Integraspec rep never even returned my call, so he was out right off the bat. Nudura and Amvic both seem to be great blocks with some unique features. When the pricing came in, I could build with Amvic for about $2k less.
My guess is the Nudura dealer probably had more mark-up on his material. I'm just like everybody else and it all boiled down to the bottom dollar.
I do have a neighbor that built with Nudura and was very happy with them.

Greg

Just my few cents....I have looked and physically touched most blocks you mention. With regards to a design that would accommodate a block (vs panel) the block I think would be best. That is, a layout drawn to accommodate the pitch of the interlock and wall length to accommodate the linear dimension of the block to avoid untied joints. If the project requires multiple corners then I think panelized is best. Of the ones you mention I like quadlock. I have seen it, touched it, seen several projects, studied the manual. I think it is the best overall horizontal panel system. I believe they have the strongest corner available. However, for my individual project I am leaning to TF for the same reasons except that it is vertical. However, its corner needs external bracing. As I recall, every piece of the quadlock system including the EPS is molded in house but I could be wrong on this.

Nudura's interesting feature is that the internal plastic webs will lock with the block and above and below. This will add vertical stability and hopefully minimize the chance for vertical sepration during the pour. I believe Integraspec offers the same features...have you looked at it? Good luck with the project.

Leonard

That's a legitimet reason, price is always a concern when building no matter the construction type.  Glad to hear your neighbor is happy with his.  I think no matter the system if it is done right that's the key.  So if the price was even which would you of gone with?  Was price the only reason you went with the other?  Would the nudura guy not "price match"?  If it were me and I saw a bid from a competitor I would rather get a sale and satisfied customer relationship than $2000.00 

Yes the locking block is a big benefit.  What really impresses me so far is the support I get from nudura.  I've not had any of the horror stories I hear about from other companies where they are great until they get the sale and them bye bye.  I did try and obtain information from integraspec, but after being hung up on twice, and then never hearing back from the sales rep after leaving a voicemail, it just left a sour taste in my mouth so I didn't attempt to bring their product on board.  It may be a great product don't get me wrong, I don't blame the product just the company.  lol  I have had good interaction with reward as well and quadlock was friendly. 

Whats sad but true is how, with so many good products on board, in my mind support is what can make or break a deal fo rme.  I'm not made of money but if I get great support from one company and they cost a shade more, I still may pay more to oget the help I need and not just be left out to dry.

You had a great post, thank you.

Rykertest,
All things being even, at that point I was leaning toward the Nudura because I liked the size of the block and I had had more interaction with the Nudura rep. Before buying, I had several conversations with the Amvic rep. and could tell that I would get great custumer service from him (and I did). I don't want anyone to think the decision was made on price alone but these quotes weren't even close.
As far as the price match goes, I am an industrial electrician for a large construction company and I wouldn't like it if a customer was to shop one of my bids, so I'm not going to shop someone else's bid. When I ask for a quote I will make it clear that I am pricing other distributors and even tell them who. If they want my business then they can give me their best price the first time. Hope I didn't step on anybodies toes there, that's just my view on a quote.

Greg

Nudura has trained and certifed installers.

Hey Greg thanks for the reply.  As the bidder or bidee I consider comparing price as part of doing business.  If I'm the homeowner lets say looking to build a home, I want a good product for a good price.  If I want to use one certain guy for the job and he is a higher bid, well, it all depends on how much higher.  a few hundred bucks won't make or break, but a few thousand or more needs serious evaluation.  If I can't sell my product even at a slightly higher price maybe I'm not a good salesman or maybe the product isn't worth it.  It really all depends on the buyer as they have so many varying ciscumstances it's comparing apples and doorknobs really. 

NUDURA is a great ICF we have used tens of thousand sf, but only one house in the past year. It was the best value for me in 2005 and 2006. Flippable is a plus, the folding is a plus but I think I get a straight wall easier with a rigid block. The only bad experience I had was with their 8" T. The 6" T is fine but the 8 has (had) a pieced together section that was weak.

Of the three your considering it is my favorite. I don't factor in support anymore, just product, price and to a lesser degree service. Whether we admit it or not price drives most projects.

NUDURA, and I suppose their attorney, will be quick to point out that they don't certify anyone to do anything. But they used to have a full two day seminar, the best I know.

One more thing, NUDURA makes their own forms and I think all their products. Try easy buck if you don't need a full wood buck.

Leonard: I would have to disagree with your post that a build with multiple corners constitutes good reason for panelized systems. Fixed forms are king for multiple corner projects, both speed, waste, and prep and pourability. On a critical day, we might say "Fold flat/lay flat, pour flat." But we are rarely critical! Because that would be bad bad bad for the ICF industry I am told.
All I can do is put my money where my mouth is and offer to do your job to prove it.

ICFConstruction: quote "I think I get a straight wall easier with a rigid block" I saw that! And when one knows better, don't they have to do better!? Or is pretty straight and pretty fast good enough?

Please note we stuffed 55 yds of 7 inch slump concrete in a 10 ft. high Nudura basement with 12 corners one time in about an hour and a half, braced exactly as we brace our normal forms;no scabs, no osb. Everyone was elated at quality and speed, however the trained eyes of our crew noticed the walls didn't sit quite as flat as our rigid block do, also the top of the wall conformed exactly to the undulations of the footer (done by other) due to the fact it is locked together vertically. One of the biggest things missing in the Nudura block is a rebar finger that allows stacking of bar without tying. (Stacking bar instead of bar side by side eases consolidation) Don't get me wrong, Nudura is great great great. Pretty handy when you cart them around on open trailers, it stacks just as fast, and Blue is my favourite.
Dan Hilty please don't punch me out this time at WOC, ok?


Kevin Schilthuis
Blue 80 Construction
www.icfinstall.com
straighter walls, faster

Kevin,

I think Nudura is a good block. I have seen it, touched it, and explored its use. Like I said before if the house is drawn for a block (even with multiple corners) block makes sense. The flexibility of Quadlock to provide a strong corner and to allow you to place ties any where you wish is elegant. TF system's design could care less about wall length with regards to the block interlock pitch (quadlock prefers a 2" incement in the walls). I am fairly certain that if panelized was such a bad idea then the market would hasten their demise. Yet I see that quadlock is actually one of the "older" manufacturers around.

Thanks for your comments...if the bank pulls through I will start a blog website of the project.

Leonard

Amvic would make a great choice because of price point and they continue to upgrade there product line. Those who have seen the days of no corner forms,brickledge forms, flooring systems, know the importance of these upgrades. Amvic has been progressive when it comes to this. Their corporate staff is also very supportive and knowledgeable .Nudura and Buildbock are both newer players to the market. With this said, both have shown that they are viable players in this rapidly changing field. Your choice will depend on many personal factors which go far beyond the performance of the above mentioned companies products . Keep during your do diligence and your obtained knowledge ,along with lifes experiences, will provide you with your product choice.

I had a designer draw up an ICF walled house with a monolithic dome roof.  He, and the engineer he uses, went out and studied the different types of ICF forms out there.  They decided to specify Nudura.  I live in Alaska and they don't have a dealer here, I emailed the company to see if it is possible to get them shipped here.  They didn't answer the email.  I then called tham and they said no problem.  I got the pdf files of the construction and engineering prints and emailed them for an estimate, no answer.  I emailed a couple of more times and finally they said they were sending them to a distributer that would work with me.  Got nothing from that company.  Called them again and said they would make sure I get the info I need...10 months later I haven't heard a thing from them.  They might make good forms, but, from my perspective, their business practices stink.  Needless to say, I won't be using them.

I can only recommend the product that i have worked with ( once..personal house..first timer ) wich is Quad Lock.
But i have seen up close 2 houses that were built with Nudura, and one is of a friend ( very big house.. 85' by 50' )

I also had quotes from QL, Nudura, Integra, Arxx and Izobest.

Izobest had the best price at first...beat all others by 3-4000$ on my project ( on ~40K$ buy)
IT is an all local manufacturer ( quebec ), but i am happy i didn't use their blocks for 1 reason now,
as i've seen and compare their foam ....i'd say around half quality/density to QL

Integra spec was in price, but the seller was bit "rough" for me, already trying to have me change stuff
before we actually commit to anything.
Again i have seen their products in hands afterward. ..and i don't understand how anyone can use that stuff..
( sorry for the integra guys .... but i can't lie )
their foam is very cheap ( feels..and peels offf quite easily )
and their clips are so looose in the panels when slided, that i was astonished they let out a product with that big
of tolerances ... the ties are also of bad plastic quality ..could break one off easily with hand
while the QL one were totally unbreakable unless u cut ot notch them seriously

Nudura was not in price for my project.. 2-3000$ more than QL
+ QL offered me alot more stuff ( accessories )
+ their documentation is very good ( since i all diy ..needed as much info as possible )
their engineer in BC was very helpfull on every occasion i discussed problems with him
and the mudilarity of their product has a value that can't be priced ...


One thing guys,
when i started my project... i had the feeling that QL was not recommended here,
but now it seems to have moved up in "rank" ...what hapenned ?
I have just built a 10K sq.ft. of wall house..with 40' of block heigh
with very minimum bracing ( all interior ..wood ..some exterior for basement )
and 0 blowout ( well 1..but we had forgot to install the ties ...so not block fault )
the layout was labour extensive.but it was easy


What surprises me with most other blocks,
is the lack of "material" between the blocks
what holds the blocks from "stripping" and opening out ?

in QL system, the blocks aren't hold on themselves..leaving on the 'foam" to create a resistance when pouring
the ties are what makes it strong ... i believe that this is a better design than
only relying on the foam for side loading between the blocks
neway

so the big house that was built near here with Nudura didn't have much problems,
and it was in hand of a first timer ... they had 2-3 blowouts..only 1 serious
and they used alot of bracing from what i can remember

JinMTVT,

I was impressed with the way QL looked and I've taken their installer class.  Like you, I plan to DIY a house.   Then I started looking ahead to installation of drywall.  How hard is it to hit that relatively small square tie that isn't continuously vertical through the form like other forms are?  I know they make a form with continuous ties, but I'm not sure what that will do to pricing.  Of course they wouldn't tell me a price per component.  Not sure why they want to keep it a secret. 

QL says to pour lifts of three to four feet.  Integraspec says to pour ten foot lifts.   That leads me to believe Integraspec is stronger.   Of course they temper that with not being able to fully fill both sides of window and door openings. 

Then there is the engineering.  Nudura has extensive engineering tables.   While QL's engineering tables aren't nearly as robust as some of the others.  Integraspec's tables are pretty good as well.

All the forms have advantages and disadvantages.

Wall lengths - no matter what type of ICF you are using (block, panel, vertical, ect.) wall length dimensions determine if you are going to have vertical seams, which is why ICFs are user freindly in that they are easy to CUT. Very rarely is an architect goin to be able to make walls lengths fit onto specific increments so that you avoid vertical joints. So whether you have 8", 6", or are going vertical, at some point you will need to cut your forms (that is if yo uwant all of your studs to lign up vertically throughout the wall). There are so many other variables that an architect takes into consideration when designing a home/building that they rarely care about vertical joints.

Pour lifts. 3/4' vs. 10' - The error comes in the definition of "lift". All ICF companies (that I know of) recommend stacking the forms to a height of 10 - 12' and then pouring the wall in consecutive 3'-4' "lifts" per code. So the comparison being made above is based on a faulty premise.

Bracing - amount of bracing is more of a direct correlation to the project and the user, not the brand of ICF. Most ICF bracing systems are recommended to be used on one side of the wall and 5' to 6' OC. Any additional bracing used is either because of the installer wanting to be "extra careful", or because there are short walls / lots of corners or because they are bracing the back side of a t-wall, etc. to say that a certain ICF needs to be braced more than others, or that one doesn't need to be braced much of others, again isn't generally true.

SoCalScott said, “Pour lifts. 3/4' vs. 10' - The error comes in the definition of "lift". All ICF companies (that I know of) recommend stacking the forms to a height of 10 - 12' and then pouring the wall in consecutive 3'-4' "lifts" per code. So the comparison being made above is based on a faulty premise.”

 

This is from the Integraspec engineering manual page 3.

• Pour Height ______________________________ Up to 10 ft., 3.1 m Continuous Pour

 

This is from the Quad Lock Concrete mix and placement technical bulletin.

Height of Lifts: Always start with a maximum 2-3’ lift (a60-90cm) at the bottom of the wall.  If this is your first pour, stick with 2’ (60cm) lifts for the whole job.  As you gain experience with ICF pours, subsequent lifts can increase to 3-4’ (90-120cm).

 

We use IRC2003.  I don’t find a lift height in that code.  Where are you finding a code requirement for the lift height?

any of you guys ever used Eco block

Didn't eco block just get bought out? SoCalScott is right, with no matter what system it will have to be cut at some point. But some systems will have more waste than others. When using blocks I never go past 6' with my braces and with TF I go to 8-10' with the braces and like Scott said with a lot of corners all bets are off on bracing. I have poured higher lifts than 3-4' but I think that is something that is done with experiance, no matter what type of system.

Have used Nudura and Integraspec both extensively.  My last 5 or 6 jobs have all been Integraspec.  All my commercial jobs have been with Integraspec.  I have also done jobs with Blue Maxx Poley Steel, Foam Form and several other blocks.  They will all do the same job when finished.  Some are easier to use than others, especially when you get over one story or you have many corners and openings.  We also ALWAYS use internal vibration.  Some blocks stand vibration better than others. 
Integraspec will probably not let you do it without a certified installer on the job.

 

 

I was able to pour up to 15ft on one shot with QL ..
but define pour height

pouring up until u tops the blocks?
or pour in the same job/day ?

i've used 2-4ft pours at first...the lifts of 5ft and last was usually 2-3 to give me time to finish correctly

but i've poured 12ft accidentally between 2 windows ( 4ft wide, 8" form ..windows are 9.5' high )
and there wasn't any problem with it,
other than it all went out of the form by the window bottom opening when we started to vibrate it to move :p
( there was alot of gravity pressure on that column of fresh concrete ..and it was a 7+ slump POS batch )

we've used vibrator extensivly without any problems other than some bulging of forms when we overdid it
( first timer..hard to guage with no help )


i am not up to the drywall stage, so i can't comment yet
and there will not be much drywall in my house
using ACP for most interior
but i've screwed some osb boards already for electrical installation
and it was very easy
just a matter of using a tape and a marking line
holds up pretty good
using cheap 2" wood screws on 0,5" osb

ACP??

ACP = aluminum composite panel

www.alucobond.com
www.alubond.com
etc ...


they have also some fireproof composite panels
and most of the regular ones can be used for interior and exterior

i've got prices around 2.25$ /sq ft for regular colors

Somewhere in ACI (insert #) it says something about 4' lift per hour. This is what I have heard numerous times from numerous sources (anybody have the actual text?), Might be "recommendation", but still is pretty standard in the industry. I've seen a contractor pour a 10' ICF wall all the way around in 1 pour, with no problems, but gave him advice...."next time, when it is not your own home/project, don't test fate", no matter what form you use. haha

Didn't know that any ICF companies still "certify" their installers. I know they give them "certificates of completion" for training courses, but there can be an inherent liability built in when an ICF company names a contractor as a "certified installer" that most corporations don't want to deal with if/when a project goes awry.

Scott, I am pretty sure that on my cards it just says 'Trained Installer'. It also has a disclaimer on the back that says something along the lines of 'although said person has been trained to use block A, if they don't install it as per installation guide we are not responsible.'
Paul Stevens

Joe, thanks for bringing this old thread to life. Actually Polycrete is the largest ICF at 16 sqft and it also folds. In fact, that's probably how Nudura got the idea. You might want take a look at it. I also hear PolycreteUSA is about to launch a new website in the next few days. Polycrete's been around since 1988.

I often wondered why NUDURA is not mention more.  I started using ICF's in 1999, beginning with PolySteel's waffle-grid, then on to the PolySteel flat wall forms. I tried ARXX, REWARD and LOGIX. 
When I went with the NUDURA ICF's, I was sold after the first installation which was a walkout basement.  With NUDURA being covering 12 sf per form vs. the std 5.33 sf, I save about 30% in labor
man hours because it installed faster and straighter.  The reversible forms created far less waste then I experienced with the other brands. I liked the fact I didn't need glue the courses together because
of NUDURA's interlocking forms.  I also like the forms being shipped flat. It made it for easier handling and storage. Waste was greatly reduced.  I don't about the Nudura dealers other areas, but the Oklahoma distributor
for NUDURA was on top things and pricing was in line with the others.  I have no plans on using any other ICF unless a customer specifies it.  To answer  (good or bad)  GOOD

Always interested any thing ICF.  I would like to see hoe NUDURA compares to Polycrete.

We have installed and poured with Nudura , IntegraSpec and Logix.
For residential applications where the bid is competitive, Labour is a huge factor.
Assembling Intergraspec blocks onsite is time consuming and expensive, not something Carpenters and Form setters should be doing at their wages.
Sorting left hand corner blocks from right hand cornerblocks , using tie wraps to hold things together and the small block size makes Logix expensive to build also.
Nudura's King-size block , total reversibility of form units, vertical interlock fingers, T intersection units make the block far superior
in terms of labour $$ saving dollars.

In terms of ICF history and design : Integra is a 1st Generation product. Model T
Logix is a 2nd Generation product. Chevrolet
Nudura is a 3rd Generation product.Mercedes-Benz