Hey all,

I'm cobbling together ideas for a passivdreamhaus.  At least a couple years out at this point, but it doesn't hurt to start dreaming early!

As you may gather from the thread title, I'm wondering if ICF blocks are "stout" enough to work with rammed-earth (and the inherent tamping)? 

My wife and I are big fans (in theory) of rammed earth for its use of onsite material (foundation hole material) and the unique sand-painting aesthetics of the interior walls.  We'd probably build a traditional form on the interior with some type of ICF on the exterior.  This way we retain the "flywheel" effect of the walls with plenty of exterior insulation.  If this gets built, it'll likely be just west of the middle of nowhere, so delivery of material to the site will probably play a cost factor.

Ideas?  Thoughts?

charlie

ps- I know rammed earth will depend on suitable soil at the site, etc.  I'm just trying to figure out if it makes sense to use ICF as one half of the form.  Otherwise there's always the C-F-C sandwich wall with rammed earth instead of concrete.

Are you thinking about placing rammed earth in ICF forms?

i would think the webbing would interfere with the tamping process

Tree, get one and try it. let us know how it goes.

Well folks, it's been done: SIREWALL is the brand-name. It's an outfit out of Vancouver and it seems pretty slick! If we can get the system to fit our budget when the time comes to pull the trigger, I think that's the way we'll go.

Nothing new under the sun, I suppose . . .

charlie

Just to clear this up - there is no such thing as ICFs for rammed earth.

ICF's are meant to sustain luiquid concrete pressure - not pressure comming from rammed earth construction.
Sirewall aka Earthwall is a method where heavy wood/aluminum forms are used where moist earth with a bit sand and cement is pressed in mechanically. They claim it to be an ecofriendly method becuse you are using the dirt from your jobsite. Most people pick this type of construction for its unique aestehics.

This type of pressure would be too much for ICF's...

Sirewall/Earthwll is insulated with XPS/EPS in the middle - similar to Engineered Sandwich Panels except for the strength.


A) Rubble trench - 4 inch bed of drain rock
B) Reinforced concrete footing - up to 6 feet wide
C) Drain pipe
D) Interior rammed earth wall, reinforced with steel rebar
E) 4" foam insulation
F) Exterior rammed earth wall, reinforced with steel rebar
G) EMT pipe to function as electrical conduit
H) Wooden top plate, anchored to wall, ready for roof truss
I) Interior floor
J) Optional anti-graffiti coating


here's something i found on the web:

"Pros of Building with Rammed Earth

A properly sited and designed rammed earth home is ideal for passive solar strategies, so it can be great for an off-the-grid house. The thick, dense walls absorb the warmth from the sun all day and slowly release the heat into the interior of the house at night. This helps keep heating bills low in the winter, and these homes tend to stay cool in the summer as well. Dirt is an easy-to-acquire material and while there are some requirements (not all dirt is going to have the right mix of sand and clay), you ought to be able to get it locally, so this tends to be an eco-friendly building material. And let's not forget the coolness factor of having a house that is built out of something unique. In many cases, homeowners wanting to save money help with the building process, and there are even DIY sites out there that will tell you how to make a house on the cheap using rammed earth construction.

Cons of Rammed Earth Construction Soil selection needs to be done carefully, and if you are able to use dirt from the building site, you'll end up with some big holes you need to figure out how to work into the landscape. Though it might seem that a house made out of dirt would be cheap, rammed earth construction actually tends to cost 5 to 15% more than conventional construction (due to the labor-intensive process of creating the rammed earth forms). It's difficult to impossible to create rounded or sculpturally shaped walls the way you can with other materials. Homes made with rammed earth construction are going to be boxy in nature. In colder climates, you'll probably need extra insulation (it's typical to add foam insulation to exterior walls and then cover it up with stucco)."

The bottom line - if your rammed earth wall is not going to be exposed inside or out - might as well build with ICF's.

Hello, My name is Joss Krayenhoff and I work for both SIREWALL and for SIREWALL Licensees. I felt there were a few misunderstandings developing and wanted to bring some clarity to this thread.

QL is accurate in saying that the ICF formwork will not sustain the pressures of rammed earth (or vice versa).

A few comments:
- His point about using the site aggregate materiall is accurate. We actually rarely use dirt from on the construction site, and believe it to be simpler and often more environmental to use dirt from a local pit.
- The SIREWALL system does typically cost more then the local standard. The percentage greatly varies from area to area.
- I would suggest it is relatively simple to create rounded or sculptural shaped walls if you know what you are doing. We certainly do not have the reputation as a product used in "boxy" homes. (We often have the opposite reputation)
- The SIREWALL System performs very well in colder climates and certainly does not need additional information. I think you are jumping back and forth between traditional rammed earth and the SIREWALL System throughout this email.
- To my knowledge we have never used xps/eps insulation. We use a number of alternatives depending on the climate and design of the project.

OL's bottom line - I think again this is a comparison between ICF and Traditional rammed earth. All SIREWALLs to date have been exposed inside and out (unless we are backfilling against a portion of the wall) and we have never used a stucco finish over our product.

I hope this provides some insight. I guess the clarity I wanted to provide was the distinction between SIREWALL and Traditional Rammed Earth. I also do not mean to bash Traditional Rammed Earth as there are many very cool historical applications such as ~2/3 of "the Great Wall of China", "The Fujian Roundhouses", and many historical buildings in the "ville de terre" in France.

Here is a photo of a project in Spokane that employs ICFs beneath the rammed earth walls.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to cover the beauty of the earth walls with a layer of styrofoam and stucco.
To improve the R-Value of your project, place rigid insulation in the middle of the rammed earth wall. Have a peek at my rammed earth photos and you will see how it's done.




Miss K

Rammed Earth is for Everyone

www.rammedearth.blogspot.com


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Hi MissKathy,

I was in Osoyoos only a couple of weeks ago admiring the rammed earth at the Nk'Mip desert centre, were you involved with the build?

I'm currently buying some land on the hill overlooking Osoyoos and planning an ICF house using Quadlock, and was toying with the idea of making up 'pseudo' rammed earth panels as exterior cladding, are you located in that area of BC?

Thanks!

Colin,

I am located in Oliver, where I built the first rammed earth home in Mainland B.C.

You can contact me at [email protected]  if you have any questions.



Kathy

Rammed Earth is For Everyone
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Hi! I am just now discovering ICF's. I agree with what you state about the force of compacting rammed earth into forms. The ICF's do not appear to be designed for such use. What I would love to use ICF's for is to use as the stemwall or footing for the rammed earth wall. I live in northeast Arizona, in the high desert plateau, on a canyon rim. This location has a lot of red sandstone bedrock. It does get very cold up here (-15 degrees in mid-winter some nights) and only for a very short season. I am wondering if ICF will be useful in this situation.

In your climate I would look into composite ICFs like Cempo or Apex. They would be ideal for no basement and stucco.

Standard products are not designed for this purpose. We build custom ICFs that have been filled and rammed with thermal mass for higher performance. We also can use any thickness of foam inside or out providing any R-value desired. We have no limit on the width of the core of the wall which allows us to achieve any thermal lag desired in the wall. We are lower cost then the standard systems we know of with the same R-value. In the last comparison we provided a 30% increase in R-value for the same cost to the home. We can also put all the insulation on the outside of the wall exposing the thermal mass to the inside of the building for improved thermal performance. We have also installed PEX in the walls for radiant heating and cooling using a solar thermal system providing the heat source and an artesian well for cooling. This provided a self heated and cooled home.

MeliNez,

I agree that ICF forms are not suitable for rammed earth loads.

As has been linked above (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregorylee/2998681896/in/set-72157608575605061/), we have built SIREWALL (Structural Insulated Rammed Earth) on ICF stem wells. Here is the completed project (http://www.sirewall.com/portfolio/residential-projects/private-residence/). I apologize, I can't see how to add hyperlinks on this site...

We have built in much colder (and warmer) climates then NE Arizona. I am happy to support you with your project and determining whether rammed earth is a fit for your vision.

~ Joss
[email protected]
http://www.sirewall.com/

Thank you! I will look into Cempo and Apex in this area.

But don't misunderstand, they should be filled with concrete, not dirt. Dirt won't work it those either.

That house is a beauty. I am working with Quentin Branch who has not worked with ICF. The footing will be basic (6 inches of stone/rubble) between the sandstone bedrock monoliths, a moisture barrier, and drilling rebar and securing rebar into the bedrock. The actual stemwall will be anywhere from 2 ft-4 ft high (to sandstone monoliths will act as a footing) with 1/2 ft above grade, 2 ft deep, and 100 ft long because the wall will be 30 ft by 30 ft by 40 ft on the interior measure where a slab floor will be put in. I looked online for 24" ICF brackets and could not find anything.

I am not sure what the logic is in having an insulated ICF stem wall under an uninsulated rammed earth wall. As far as I know, Quentin Branch doesn't do any insulated rammed earth construction. Feel free to give us a call (or have Quentin call).

We can build custom ICFs that can be any width desired. We do it based on the requirements of the job. The cost is not more than the standard available products. We use commonly available parts assembled on site. Material cost is lower than the formed lego style standard blocks from other ICF manufacturers.