I am approaching the pour for my first ICF house and making final preparations.  The only thing giving me the jitters is getting the top level.   We had to cut the blocks horizontally.   I used IntegraSpec blocks which are 1 foot high and some of my windows and doors required 14 inches of height.   The combinations that resulted made for an uneven line on top.

My question is are there any remedies for ensuring a level surface on the top of walls?   Any tricks or tried and tested remedies?  

Posted By jacktca on 14 May 2012 01:24 PM
My question is are there any remedies for ensuring a level surface on the top of walls?   Any tricks or tried and tested remedies?  

Here's my tried and once tested, but not necessarily true, trick.

What I did was get some of the metal channels that are used for the top and bottoms of metal stud walls. Not sure how thick the foam is on your blocks but I used 2 1/2" channel on mine. Put the channel over the top edge of the block and level it all around with a laser level. In areas where there was a fair amount of space under the channel I put in wood shims to hold it up. The channel fits snug on the foam so once it's leveled it should stay pretty well in place. It provides a nice smooth screed surface. The only problem was removing it later. I pretty much destroyed it pulling it out from between the foam and concrete. The top of my wall ended up level within about a 1/2" or so, as I recall. The channels are fairly inexpensive and you can toss them in the recycle bin later if you have no other use for them.

Not necessarily the best way to do what I needed, or what you're looking to do, but it is one approach.

How wavy is it?

Snap a new line and re-cut the blocks for a double sill plate on the bad side.

I would have snapped a new line but the ICF expert who is guiding the project says that all blocks on top need to be the same cut size. He also claims that ICF blocks push down and settle during the pour. So you snap a line now and cut it and then during the pour this part of the wall settles and that part of the wall stays higher.

How about if I buy some 10 foot metal channels and attach them to some 2x3's? Then use them to smooth and level a wall 10 feet at a time. Would that work?

I know you're in California, and Polycrete is not available there, but since there many folks throughout the United States read this forum, I think it's important to correct mis-information. Specifically, your "ICF Expert's" contention that all ICFs settle and compress during the pour.

That's simply not true. Polycrete Big Block does not compress. Polycrete installers do not have to tilt their wall in a few degrees either. Polycrete bracing does not have slots for screws, it has holes because the wall will not move. When you plumb up your Polycrete wall before pouring, you can be comfortable knowing it will stay that way. That's because there is a welded steel wire mesh inside the EPS panels that keep them rigid and strong.

With regard to leveling the top edge: Make the bottom course level and the top one will be also. It's easy to do on a Polycrete wall. Bottom line is that if you use a premuim ICF, you will have fewer problems. Here's a slogan for you to live by: Don't Buy Cheap Junk.

> if you use a premuim ICF, you will have fewer problems

I assembled my walls out of Reward blocks and IntegraSpec blocks. That's why I have to cut the IntegraSpec blocks horizontally, to sync the height. I have to say the Reward blocks are 1000 times easier to work with than IntegraSpec. IntegraSpec blows! Financially I came out better doing what I did because I bought the blocks bargain basement on craigslist but next time I will do things differently.

Regarding your Polycrete product. Either way you're going to need some sort of platform to have access to the top of the ICF's when you pour. For my project the braces which hold the walkway also adjust to plumb the walls. Another question which arises is how do you cut the PolyCrete blocks for places where windows and doors occur?

Cut them with a circular saw. If you don't have someone on your crew who can use a circular saw you should send them all back to delivering newspapers.

If you save a few bucks on a cheap ICF, but end up bald-headed with an ulcer and a wife who hates you, what's the point?

Posted By jacktca on 14 May 2012 04:02 PM
So you snap a line now and cut it and then during the pour this part of the wall settles and that part of the wall stays higher.

I'm sure that happened to me. I would swear the top of the wall was more level before the pour than it was after. Corners stayed higher than the straight sections did.

Based on my one time of building, I would be hesitant to try to do 10' at a time. Mostly because of time. I'd be afraid the concrete would set up faster than you could level it by moving the channel around. Also, in my case, some of the concrete was a tad higher than the foam. Pulling the channel to use it elsewhere could allow the concrete to settle downward and outward and set up lower than desired.

So when do you insert the anchor bolts with this method?

Posted By jacktca on 14 May 2012 08:09 PM
So when do you insert the anchor bolts with this method?

As soon as the concrete was stiff enough to hold them in place.

He also claims that ICF blocks push down and settle during the pour

My ARXX blocks didn't settle. How much horizontal steel do you have in the wall and how high is the wall overall?

What does your "expert" say about the settling? Is it controllable in some way? Did he have you build the wall, what, 2" higher? 1-1/2" higher to account for settling?

Whatever you do, sounds like you should place a couple strongbacked 2X's at each end of the wall with nails set to signify the actual top. That way, if you do get sagging you are ready to snap a line to find the proper level.

Fill slowly to minimize the risk of bulging at the bottom.

Pick up drywall track and place it on top of the wall upside down, use a laser level and screw through the track and into the block web, now the top of your wall is level.

or

Strap 1x4 to the outside of the wall, both sides, level all the way around, now the top of your well is level.

Your in California...your not wet setting your anchor bolts, they need to be in place prior to pour.

The expert said to not hardwire anything vertically because the blocks can compact down.   "Can" not "will" is the key word.    I have two types of blocks, Reward and IntegraSpec.   He said to cut the IntegraSpec wall 1/4" higher than the Reward wall.   That's not much.   Reward walls are 8' 1/2"  IntegraSpec walls are about 8' 2".   I had to rip the IntegraSpec blocks 1.5".   Just my luck my table saw got clogged with styrofoam debris and stopped working at the tail end of the wall construction project.   So we had to use a circular saw to finish the job.   The cuts turned out slightly wavy and not at a perfect right angle.   The top of the walls looks like a mess. 

I like your idea regarding 2x4's   By coincidence the window and door bucks are kept in place with 8 foot 2x4's which I did not cut because I wanted to use them later.   So I already have 8 foot high 2x4's in place.   I can just attach a piece of wood to the top.   Excellent idea.   Thanx.

What type of top post are you planning on?

I am not comfortable with a 2x as in reality that 1.5" piece of wood is not the strongest attachment point. I am more comfortable with a 4x or the 3.5 inches of attachment area. That 2x can split really easily. It's more money for the 4x but in the grand scheme of things, we are talking about a few hundred dollars.

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 14 May 2012 05:07 PM
I know you're in California, and Polycrete is not available there, but since there many folks throughout the United States read this forum, I think it's important to correct mis-information. Specifically, your "ICF Expert's" contention that all ICFs settle and compress during the pour.

That's simply not true. Polycrete Big Block does not compress. Polycrete installers do not have to tilt their wall in a few degrees either. Polycrete bracing does not have slots for screws, it has holes because the wall will not move. When you plumb up your Polycrete wall before pouring, you can be comfortable knowing it will stay that way. That's because there is a welded steel wire mesh inside the EPS panels that keep them rigid and strong.

With regard to leveling the top edge: Make the bottom course level and the top one will be also. It's easy to do on a Polycrete wall. Bottom line is that if you use a premuim ICF, you will have fewer problems. Here's a slogan for you to live by: Don't Buy Cheap Junk.

Without this turning into a battle of ICF blocks. Would you state that Nudura blocks are a quality block? They lock into place and are the longest block form available.

The expert said to not hardwire anything vertically because the blocks can compact down.

I was thinking more about the weight of the steel resting in the cradles on the blocks. That should compact them adequately. There must be some odd play in the blocks you used. Mine were locked together tight and the vertical and horizontal steel formed a framework of it's own. I think it would have been hard for the blocks to sag with even moderate attachment to that steel framework. The sag you are describing sounds more like the blocks expanding a little from the pressure of the concrete against the sides. As the block stretches outward, the edges will drop a little and over all the courses, it adds up.

Also, if you keep the lifts small and the mix just slippery enough when you pour, it might help.

Using a flyash mix?

Another solution would be to get some 1/2" CDX ply and rip it into 6" planks, 8' long. You would use those to build up the cavity in the center, one on each side. Presumably the wall won't sag more than the 6". Canned foam can glue the edges to the foam block and fill the irregular areas.

The cross pieces would be pieces of 2X2 cut to the cavity width. If you set them at the right locations, you could augur holes in them to let the anchor bolts dangle at the right height and location. After you filled to near the top, the settling will presumably have occurred and you can snap a string line inside the "form" you built, using the strongbacked verticals at each end for the reference and then finish to that line. Break off your temporary form planks and you should have a bit of flat wall rising above irregular block. You can fill that with foam later.

Really. Guys next time just use a block that does not compress. Regards.

Posted By Lbear on 15 May 2012 12:14 AM
Without this turning into a battle of ICF blocks. Would you state that Nudura blocks are a quality block? They lock into place and are the longest block form available.

Nudura is not the longest block form available, it is the same length as Polycrete Big Block. Nudura is among the best of the traditional type ICFs.

I paid my ex-wife's husband #3 $20/hour to help me construct the ICF blocks.   Roughly 50% of the task was assembling the window and door bucks and corner braces (made of wood).    The wall with Reward blocks went up in about 1 hour.   The remaining three walls made with IntegraSpec blocks took us several 10-11 hour days (about 5-6).    So the total for labor for hubby #3 was $1350.     I paid about $50 for the Reward blocks.   I paid about $400 for the IntegraSpec blocks.   I found both deals using crazedlist which has since been decommissioned.  (craigslist on steroids)   Shipping came out to about $450.    Total material + labor (counting just the styrofoam assembly): $1575.

Had I went with one quality brand (Reward for example) here are the costs I was quoted:  $16/block + $1200 shipping or $24/block on-site.    I would have paid roughly $4000 for the Reward blocks needed + about 1 day labor.

In synopsis, financially I came out ahead:   $1600 vs $4200 give or take

The lesson learned here is if you mix two types of blocks, the height does not always match, and then you have to cut the higher block.   So financially I came out ahead but quality wise I would have done better if the height mismatch didn't force me to cut blocks horizontally.

Another lesson learned is that IntegraSpec blows.   The tiny teeth in their blocks do not interlock easily.   Some blocks insert nice and easy.   Other blocks have issues.   The issues are awfully time consuming and annoying.   Inserting web spacers is not that difficult but given the huge amount of spacers needed it is a formidable task.  Building rows 1 foot at a time is much more work than 18 inches at a time (6 vs 8 rows).    The work of measuring and cutting around windows and doors doubles when two separate sides of a block are involved instead of just one block.   So financially I came out ahead but building the place was at times very aggravating and hubby #3 is now more convinced than ever that ICF's blow and that I don't know what I'm doing.   He's a traditional wood frame type of contractor.