Well, I have been  reading through this board for about 2 years now and made the plunge this past summer to construct a timber frame home enclosed with polyurethane SIPs.  The location is South-Central Colorado at 8900' elevation.  Following is a recount of how the construction process has gone thusfar.  Pictures will follow in a post this evening.

The foundation was poured back in early August.  This was a phenomonal job with fantastic tolerances by the concrete contractor.  The timber frame was erected in late August, and the Amish family who erected the frame commented very positively on the squareness and tolerance of the foundation layount.  It took TWO DAYS to erect a four-bent timber frame, with two timbered shed dormers, and a gabled extension.  The efficiency of the Amish crew was impressive.  The GC installed the T&G over the timber frame without a hitch.  The Aspen T&G against the oak frame provides a beautiful contrast. 

Then came the SIP installation the first week in September.  The walls went up rather quickly (about 2 days), but the roof took almost another 10 working days to complete.  From start to finish, we spend about 3 weeks on the SIP construction.  I was honestly disappointed, expecting it would take no more than half this time. 

The biggest problem was with roof valleys.  None of the valleys fit from the shop.  Every single one had to be field modified causing a great deal of frustration and wasted time on the part of the installer.  More advice on this subject below.

The fascia board went up with some frustration as there were roof panels that were off by 1/4", requiring the contractor to have to shim the fascia so as to get a continuous look.  Window installation followed and went very well.  All the rough openings were very close to the dimensions I required.

The electrical work in interior walls went at a lightning pace, but things came to a crawl went it came time to pull wire through conduits.  The biggest problem was that the manufacturer's floor people were using a thick adhesive cement on the PVC conduit unions which spilled into the channel, thereby restricting the available area to pull electrical conductors.  The manufacturer assured me this has since been corrected.

The outside of the home is acrylic stucco (cement base coat).  It went on as expected and looks very nice.

No real problems with plumbing since we knew the exterior walls would not carry any.

So here are the things I learned and several conclusions with my experience.

1) It is absolutely imperative that if you (the owner) are the one working with the SIP company, that you check EVERY single dimension on CONSTRUCTION drawings.  Demand detailed construction drawings from  the SIP manufacturer.  Although I checked Window/Door rough openings, I did not have construction drawings with dimensions for each panel.  This proved to be a mistake, and it possibly would have resulted in me catching fabrication mistakes with the roof and electrical outlet placement.
1a) I spent about 10 hours cumulatively with the SIP company on laying out electrical boxes and rough openings, and there were still errors.  So PLAN and CHECK multiple times.
2) If using urethane SIPs, check that electrical boxes do not fall behind timbers (yes this happened to me with two boxes).  Also, if doing a timber frame, make sure the SIP manufacturer draw the frame outline (exterior posts) on the drawings to ensure your rough openings don't fall behind a timber (yes, this happened to me with one window).
3) With urethane SIPs, be sure your panel company puts in the required amount of outlets on both the walls and counters.  There are minimums required, and it's very difficult to modify a urethan SIP.  EPS SIPs are more forgiving as the electrician chooses the box location and creates the opening.
4) Think about how you will get power to roof mounted boxes.  I had three roof boxes installed, and did not use one of them.  The T&G covered the boxes, and I concluded with the electrician that it was easier to add interior wall sconces than to find the boxes and break the ceiling.
5) I would not do this again unless I had a SIP approved installer contracted directly by the manufacturer.  This keeps accountability with one person - the manufacturer.
6) Unless you have technical knowledge to confirm roof hip/valley drawings, I would have complicated roofs (with hips and valleys) cut in the field.
7) The idea of the SIP association that this process is faster than stick, is, I believe false.  When you factor in time to insulate a stick home, I would argue that it is about equal even when you discount the problems I had, but you're not going to save 30% on labor.
8) The insulaiton envelope is impressive.  My plumber plugged in a 50 kbtu kerosene heater without the window/door foamed, and in about 2 hours the home was toasty, and stayed that way throughout the day.
9) Be sure you or your general contractor understand that ALL windows and doors have to be sealed with foam, otherwise you are throwing away money.  I used a commercial grade foam gun applicator and it works 2-3 times faster than the store bought version.  Make sure you get a gun that allows you to adjust the bead size.  It's worth the additional $20-$30.
10) I don't care what anyone says on this forum, the rough-in electrical will take you longer with SIPS (either EPS or Urethane) than with conventional stick construction.  I saw it firsthand, and I had a wizard electrician who had done many SIPs homes before.  There is simply no way it can be done faster.
11) Despite my problems, I had a very good SIP manufacturer that was responsive and showed a genuine interest in solving the problems we had.  The staff and owner were very good to work with.
12) My general contractor would not build with SIPs.  His theory is that you can stick and foam faster and more accurately than with SIPs.  My guess at this point is that he is correct on the speed and accuracy front, but the SIP insulation envelope will be slightly better since there is less thermal bridging.

If I were to do it again I would want a GC to take the timber frame layout, and work out all of the SIP details above.  It would probably cost more, but I would gladly trade in the stress and hours for the fee.  I will post pictures of frame, SIPS, and finished exterior this evening.   

Thanks for your post! What SIP company did you use? Looking forward to the Pics.
What other products were used that you can recommend or not recommend? (radiant, erv,etc)

I used ICS-RM out of Loveland, Colorado.  Despite a few issues, I would use them again.  They were courteous, attentive, and had a genuine interest in ensuring their product worked.  I used Marvin Integrity Windows and a Thermatru fiberglass front door.  Both very good products.  The Integrity windows are very reasonably priced, fiberglass exterior, and wood interior.  The heat will be radiant and baseboard hot water.  The basement has tubes in the slab, and the first floor is staple-up.  The 2nd story will have baseboard hot water.  The reason for the baseboard was because there is no subfloor.  And there is no subfloor because the county where I built has a height limit on the home (I am 6" below the limit).

The roof is covered with 15lb felt between the T&G and SIPs, then Ice&Water Shield over the SIPs and then Elk 40 yr Prestique Xtra which is Elk's Class 4 Impact resistant roof (same impact rating on an asphalt shingle as found on a metal roof!).

One more item for those considering SIPs.  You will need some type of jam extension whether you use 4 1/2" or 6 1/2" panels.  The 4 1/2" panel results in a 5" wall when you add drywall.  This is 1/2" thicker than a standard 2x4 wall.  Another item my general contractor was not happy about as he now has to create a transition piece between the window jam and the trim.  Obviously if you do a drywall return there is no problem.  Here are the pictures.

(1st one is the finished frame, raised in TWO DAYS)
(2nd one is the finished SIPS)
(3rd is the finished stucco).

Anyone want to see the interior?

That timber framing looks amazing. Bring on the interior pics! :)

I would think that it would depend on the complexity of the structure, would it not?


That blanket statement would only be true if all of the wiring systems were the same as the one that you used. Would it not? There are multiple systems in use, and the system that we use can be roughed-in in the same amount, or less time than a stick framed structure. On common chase to service multiple boxes(with pre-routed box locations). Not a dream, but not difficult or time consuming.


That is, unfortunately, the norm. It's called resistence to change. It could also be the product(manufacturer). It sounds like the difficulty of fitting the roof panels was a key ingredient. Had he been erecting a 1,500 sqft ranch, and erected the structure in < week(walls & roof) he may have had a different opinion.

Your project looks very nice. Congrats on your progress!

Pictures of the interior.  The ceiling is Aspen and the frame is all white oak with hickory pegs.  Drywall is going up.

My electrical contractor was not very happy when he got done with my SIP house either. Said "never again"
My single level 2500 SF took 3 months to erect with SIPs. They said 1-2 weeks...................RIGHT! there is always an excuse!

That being said I love the tight envelope and the rock solid structure. Would I do it again? Probably not based on my past experience.
It would cost me my wife!

In looking at the pictures I think the timerframe/ SIPs combo is the problem, the frame make the house very cut-up and then you need to go back and fit all the SIPs in between? ...... Very labor intensive no matter what system you are using.
1- 2 weeks is realistic if it was a straight SIP home

GeorgiaTom -

A timber frame is "wrapped" on the outside with SIPs.  There is no filling in between the timber structure.  Although filling is what they used to do centuries ago when timber frames were developed.

The problem with my structure was the roof.  Like I had said in my original post, the walls took about 2 days, but the roof took almost another two weeks.  It was the valley cuts that messed things up.  Electrical rough-in took about 1 1/2 - 2 weeks to complete.

That is understandable. Wiring a Sip structure is a different 'animal'. That's why it's so important to have a wiring plan before the 1st panel has even been set. Also, your electrician should 'be in the loop' prior to setting panels. A good plan, and a few holes drilled while the panels are being set, can make things much easier.

JC -
Agreed. And believe me, I spent about 8-10 hours with the SIP company ensuring every electrical box was where it was supposed to be. The biggest problem was pulling wire through conduit versus moving it in a stick frame house. My home made it even more complicated because I had no 2nd story subfloor and no attic. All of the exterior wall wiring wire came from the basement, through the sill and into the SIP conduits.

I think that I (the consumer) and industry need to accept that the building envelope is indeed superior to stick, but it will cost more upfront in electrical, materials, labor and planning.

Well, I agree with some of what you've said %^). You have a very nice house, and with oil hitting $100 a barrel this week(other methods of heating are going up also), you'll be saving $$$ while those who chose traditional construction methods will be crying.

Sip Projects take planning. There is a learning curve to every new product. I remember when TJI flooring was rejected by carpenters (early 1970's) now it is the norm. If you used a company with Cad design knowledge the hips or valleys would fit to the nearest 1/4 inch. You also need to coordinate the artisain subcontractors, especially the electrician and low voltage contractor. Problem is that some of the SIP manufactures are selling to anyone or the representitive does not have hands on experience and is just a good old boy salesman.

Look at my website

LINK

The church roof had several valleys, all panels were precut with 1x6 applied on ground, sanded and stained, panels flipped and applied by crane to roof. !5,000 sq foot roof!--15 days from start to finish! All electrical pre applied and Fire sprinklers!

Good planning and the right people are the key--I would say if you did another one you could do that roof in a week, maybe three days!!

At least you are learning--Jeff Carter / designer & manager

I'm sorry it did not come out as expected.

I have been planning my "dream house" for some time and everything has evolved... from design to materials to method of construction. Some time ago I finally settled on SIPs. Eventhough there are other methods (ICF, etc.) I am stuck on SIP, because I believe I can influence the process and maintain its PROs by PLANNING.

I have learned from a lot of reading, forums, talking, and I am seeing that it requires a lot of planning. Not just run of the mill, but in depth. In some regards it is no different than any other method. I work in an industry that gets down to the nitty gritty, so I am used to thinking at that level. In fact, I don't see how else you can do it. I basically feel you or whoever you hire to GC/build it need to understand the details of that construction method. Otherwise you will not understand the details and the devils in those details. Unless you understand, you will not be able to plan around that hurdle. By putting yourself (empathize) in the shoes of those that must work or interact with the product, you can design the structure such that it is... DFA (Designed for Assembly). When you can do that to a macro level (micro to me being every last nail, which is a little too deep), you can see impending hurdles and plan around them.

I am doing this 'design' work myself because: 1) I want to minimize the hurdles, 2) I hope to save some cost by doing some work myself, and 3) I like design and learning from it all. Besides... I will be the GC so I must know every iota I can. I plan on using a SIP erector with experience and solid performance. They exist. I've found one that can design and draw up the production drawings themselves, so that they do not have to wait for the slow factory engineers/designers. When you have some inkling of the nature of the product and process, you can judge whether the erector is a serious SIP company or just pretenders... or something in between.

I'm not saying I'm some genius... just that I am fortunate to do similar work in my profession and the things I do easily allow me to understand the SIP construction product/process. I was never so bold as to consider being a GC before, but I believe I am ready for the heartaches and pleasures.

I think people often forget about the CONS of stick, too easily when they experience some CONs in SIPs. I don't believe that is a fair call, because bad planning or design or framing might have caused an otherwise efficient example. Stick is definitely very forgiving, but then it is also full of CONs itself. Nothing is perfect, but I believe if BOTH methods are done "right" (yeah right), the SIP would be the superior product in the long term. That is why we all try it, right? For every pain in SIP, I imagine there are just as many with stick, but it has long term issues. It is easy for people to just say, "stick", but that is because of an imbalance of experience and/or bad planning/work on that person's side. I am not willing to accept the CONs of stick, just to help the assembler. The assembler's pain is only a fraction of the lifetime of the house. I definitely want to minimize his pain as it means money in the end from me. But minimizing that means planning and having the right people do it. People who want stick homes wouldn't go choose a builder who's only done... adobe all his life and just dabbled in stick here and there. The same is true of SIP.

The wiring. I can't say I have experience in any of this, but what I understand is that if I was the guy wiring, I would want to make sure I could visualize and thus be able to verify the design is DFA'd before it got to me (it is normally in the interest of any trade to KNOW how long so he can quote right and maintain the profit margin he desires. Variability adds risk and most sensible business people like consistency). Having some basic understanding of wiring and taking the extra time (and expense) to involve the electrician is my plan. I will not have just some generic typical architectural plan view that shows those generic wire routes off in space. Those will just represent the basic idea. I will also have each panel laid out with the routing and labeled and quantified. I am lucky in that I work in CAD and I can design the house (all) in CAD. Most people haven't this ability/resource and I think that is partially the blame when it comes to wiring. Unless you can SEE the final outcome modeled in 3D (or unless your electrician can visualize a 2D plan in 3D), it is hard to plan ahead to see the hurdles. This is the failure in stick construction, but definitely in SIP... for the mere fact that SIP is more restrictive. In this day and age, the SIP industry should have CAD software that helps layout routings (wiring or plumbing) such that these problems are fixed before one panel is cut.

I can summarize all of this by pointing out one insanely STUPID fact of housing construction - It is stuck somewhere in the 13th century.

Consider this... I work in the automotive industry. Manufacturing to be exact. When you design a car and everything in it, you design it to the Nth degree and often times use DFA and DFM practices to streamline the production process and assure quality/efficiency. One of the tools in good design (which helps planning) is CAD. It's been around forever now! An average car costs $25-30k today. A house? I think it was $200k last I checked. Automobiles are one of the MOST complex machines we produce today. They are far more complex to design and build than a house... and they cost far less... and can do far more. That is the insanity in it to me (i.e. How the massive cost of a house does not include something as simple as design work that affords the trades efficiency and the owner peace of mind.). I know how much profit some home construction can have and that is what irritates me to no end. Most of the process hasn't advanced a bit in a hundred years. I fully understand the tolerance levels of wood is not that of a machined piece of metal, but there are other factors that could easily be modernized to the aid of construction. I think a lot of the blame is the mediocre regulations in housing itself and the lack of any modernization in the processes from design throughout construction, etc. The industry is like mine throughout the 50s-80s - fat and happy with its margins. Then competition came and kicked our collective butts. If the fact that Mexican labor making up a large portion of the labor more and more doesn't awaken people in the industry, maybe the fact that companies in Japan are building factory homes well beyond the "prefabs" we have in the US. Companies like Toyota KNOW process efficiency that results in a quality product. To not realize what that means when they start to dabble (they already have) in housing is to sign your industry off.

Sorry about the rant.

Too bad you didn't go with an ICF foundation.

Uncleho,

Couple of points about the house/car analogy.  Your systems (i.e. CAD) are better and your tolerences tighter therefore your focus can be on efficient sub-component construction.  I live in El Paso and am well versed in the near slave labor wages paid to Mexicans to do the sub-component work to keep the costs down.  If every component of the car had to be built by a licensed, experienced craftsman, what would a car cost? 

Secondly, red tag a part and take it off the line.  Pick up another one and charge back the vendor.  Great but again, not exactly what happens on a job site when a project gets stopped for countless, inconsistent reasons to include an inspector not having been taken to lunch last week.  Those costs have to be factored in.

Now, with my company, we are looking at Super Trades, providers who are multi-licensed and have the capability of doing multiple jobs on the jobsite to drive down cost and save time.  These folks are few and far between, but we do make the effort to use them whenever they are available.  Sips also goes a long way towards tightening the time schedule.  But when a car takes 90-120 days to build, like a house does, I challenge you to sell it for $25k-$50k and stay in business. 

Lastly, most homes are constructed the same as they were decades ago, using the same technology.  The automobile industry updates manufacturing technologies on an annual basis.  And let us not forget, you guys have an international field of competitors to constantly keep you honest on your pricing and commitment to quality.  I shudder to think what we would be driving had Japan not shown up when it did.  (Can anyone say K car?)   

If you have real thoughts about building it better, faster and cheaper, I am your guy.  I have contemplated both horizontal and vertical integration but until we can control the weather we cannot realistically build a home manufacturing company.  Imagine keeping a payroll active while the snow and rain keep you bottled up inside.  The other option is to let your folks go during down times and take the chance of losing them for good. 

There are companies who do a great deal of pre and sub-assembly indoors and they fight a stereotype every time they try to introduce their product into a market place.  Regardless of the quality of the product folks do not want a manufactured home.

Thanks for the time, folks. 

 

Man I hate being the second smartest guy in a two way conversation but here goes anyway.

The building industry has to change in a few ways before any real pain relief can be enjoyed by the consumer.

1.  We have to replace the things we build with.  Houses have to be built from materials other than the expensive, finite materials we currently use.  Car manufacturers look to replace obsolute components on a yearly basis with products that are cheaper and easier to work with.  Easier for the car builder mind you, please do not try to tell me the car of today is easier to work on.  It is easier and less costly to build, more expensive to service, ( a large profit opportunity for car makers), a lesson we could take from the auto industry.

2.  We have to get better at doing off site sub-component work so that the job site becomes the assembly site.  Again, you outsource for a reason.  Your point about working capital is true to a point, but renting a space big enough to build a souse inside of should not be a show stopper.  The largest cost would go to material handling equipment.  But if we took the construction in doors, did some creative design so the home did not look like a house trailer and then moved the product to site for final assemmbly, we could build a house inside of two weeks.  The sub-assembly would take longer, but the assembly would move incredibly fast.  We could keep employees instead of subs and maintain a solid QC of our products attacking costs and time over runs. 

3.  There has to be a demand for more houses in the same family quicker.  I have never owned a car for more than 5 years.  Imagine trading up a house every 5 years.  Moving alone would make that a nightmare.  DR Horton is working on getting the second and sometimes third buy opportunities from its entry level home buyer.  I honestly do not have a clue how well that is working, but it is being attempted.  Most of the time people have no desire to move, they like where they live and enjoy the security of home equity.

We, here at my company, focus mostly on larger scale housing subdivisions, condos and the like.  We are looking at several ways to provide a better product at a better price.  But right now there is no demand that would warrant the R&D plunge to get large scale manufacturing into the alternative building products market.  No demand is not good for R&D.  It has to change.  But it is not going to right now.  There is no need to.

Thanks,
Greg   

     

Those that have hired SIP installers (experienced and separate from general) what would be the range of cost for Installing?

Has anyone had experience in southern California?

Has anyone had experience with EZ Build Systems? Their pitch is to supply the entire house envelope using SIPs and floor and roof systems.