Stick/Block House Vs. SIP's. What should be used in a cost comparison?
Last Post 16 Jan 2010 03:39 PM by nlappos. 90 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 512345 > >>
Author Messages
Marc&KemUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:50

--
22 Feb 2008 04:56 PM

The only comparison I hear about when comparing the cost of a SIP house Vs Sick is:
"After it is all said and done the SIP is about the same cost".
What is the definition of "said and done"?
Is it the shell? Is ROI included. Maybe the labor reduction is the key.

My question is..... does anyone have some actual costs they could share for this comparison?
What should be included in this cost?

Thanks,
Marc and Kemella Allyn

www.MallAboutTown.com
www.AllAboutTheCross.com



Greg FreyermuthUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:131

--
23 Feb 2008 06:44 PM
Marc & Kemella,

I have an excel spreadsheet that is set up to allow for every cost for building a house. I use it extensively to price check and to prevent myself from missing any items during my quoting process. We are using it right now for a 60 unit SIPS's condo project we use. I got it in a hard copy form from an old-schooler who never saw a computer he had any use for. It will allow you to do a good comparison by simply filling out both spreadsheets using the different processes you spoke of.

To the actual hard dollar savings: (And I am sure with the expertise on this site there will be those who have others)

1. TVM (time value of money) If you build faster you get out from under construction financing and into a lower rate longer term note.
2. Systems, if the house is better built (tighter and better insulated) you will need smaller HAVCR systems. Saves on the construction and the upkeep sides.
3. You will not buy insulation in the quantities you would otherwise buy. You may buy some expandable polystyreme for joints and seams but little else.
4. Trades who have to install should find walls straighter which costs them less time to do finish work and you should be able to negotiate a better per foot rate on their services.
5. The cost to maintain the house at comfortable tempuratures, regardless of the location, will be less given the smaller systems and the vastly improved envelope you are living in

If you want the spreadsheet let me know and use it to do a legitimate side by side comparison.

Greg


Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563
GregFreyermuth@energreensips.com
www.energreensips.com
dcook4User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:17

--
24 Feb 2008 12:36 PM

Hi Greg, I am in a similar situation and would love that software, or at least an idea of how to get the software, we are planning on building a house in the next year or so, and are trying to compare prices, I am an electrician so I have some construction knowledge, but a program to lay everything out would be very helpful and very appreciated.

 thank you very much.

Derek



bboydUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1

--
24 Feb 2008 09:34 PM
Greg,

Have you built out any single family SIP homes? We are going out to bid for two SF custom homes, both we would like to put up with SIPs. I feel certain the long term costs will be significantly lower for the homeowner. I am however keen to hear how they are going up in terms in of cost of goods sold.

Cheers,
Bryan Boyd
Tanglewood Properties
Annapolis, MD


Greg FreyermuthUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:131

--
25 Feb 2008 11:25 AM
If we look strictly from the standpoint of COGS, we are at or close to the same dollar cost as stick. Consider the infrastructure you loose with SIP's that offsets the costs of the panels and we also build our own SIP's. Our margins do not include a middle man trying to make a fair margin to accomodate the cost of his time and the time of his men.

We are right now looking at taking our business model into states where builders seeking to use SIP's could potentially partner up with us and support the cost of a plant. We have the costs remarkably low and we think we can make it work. No sales pitch intended for those who dislike people trying to sell their own products, but the best way to make SIP's affordable is to incorporate as much of the SIP's manufacutering as possible and to remove the margin a middle man would require.

The other benefit is the time factor. We are beginning a 64 condo project here shortly, and we see our time at about 66% of the normal build time. If we could get paint and mud to dry faster and inspectors to move with a purpose we could even get better than that. When we take a look at the "Real" green benefits it is also a PR homerun.

Anyway, if you want to discuss it further, give me a call.
Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Cell
gregfreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail


Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563
GregFreyermuth@energreensips.com
www.energreensips.com
Marc&KemUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:50

--
25 Feb 2008 12:17 PM
Sorry to be getting back so late. The whole family has got the bug. A spreadsheet sounds great. Even if we don't have any real time data to enter, it will give a great way of planning and estimating/comparing costs.
 
Please send me a copy at links@mallabouttown.com

We tend to justify the SIP cost by going back to long term savings. I agree this is the topper but how much more will the initial cost be? Our mortgage? Broadcast that interest rate out 30 years. Don't get me wrong, I will build with SIP's, I'm just looking for the bottom line. To say you will save 60% off your utility bill by adding on $20 month to the 30 year mortgage kinda sounds like a car salesman saying..What do you want your monthly payments to be. I want to know, what will I pay for this car?

I am surprised I don't hear anything from the usual SIP guys. Is this topic a little touchy for them?

"Just trying to stir up a comment" don't get offended..... How about it JC, Steve or Chris you SIP guys are awefully quiet on this subject.

Marc


cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3644
Avatar

--
25 Feb 2008 04:20 PM
Posted By Marc&Kem on 02/25/2008 12:17 PM
Sorry to be getting back so late. The whole family has got the bug. A spreadsheet sounds great. Even if we don't have any real time data to enter, it will give a great way of planning and estimating/comparing costs.
 
Please send me a copy at links@mallabouttown.com

We tend to justify the SIP cost by going back to long term savings. I agree this is the topper but how much more will the initial cost be? Our mortgage? Broadcast that interest rate out 30 years. Don't get me wrong, I will build with SIP's, I'm just looking for the bottom line. To say you will save 60% off your utility bill by adding on $20 month to the 30 year mortgage kinda sounds like a car salesman saying..What do you want your monthly payments to be. I want to know, what will I pay for this car?

I am surprised I don't hear anything from the usual SIP guys. Is this topic a little touchy for them?

"Just trying to stir up a comment" don't get offended..... How about it JC, Steve or Chris you SIP guys are awefully quiet on this subject.

Marc
Marc;

no offense taken, but it is  also like a customer asking how much does a car cost.

I do not price out conventional stick  vs  steel SIPs, because I do not build conventional any more. I usually tell the customer that we are about 2% higher on the overall "turnkey" job. This is only based on feedback from customers that have received stick built bids against us.
some times our bids are actually less than stick built, as was the case for the Boltin Residence http://southernsips.com/boltin.html or the monroe job http://southernsips.com/monroebusiness.html

But beyond the SIPs part we also install Simonton, vinyl frame, insul. glass - low-"e" /argon filled windows. We also install a variable speed heat pump, energy star appliance.

so what kind of car do you want?

95% of builders in our area use single pane CHEAP aluminum windows, the minimum HVAC package available.The cheapest sub-trades they can find. (kind of reminds me of the space shuttle)

Our customers are usually predisposed to desiring: energy efficiency, or termite resistive, or hurricane resistive, or mold resistive healthy homes. At times They have already decided on a SIPs home before I meet them thru their own intelligent research.

So what kind of car do you want ? one with a 5 star crash test? and good fuel economy?
What kind of home do you want? one with a 5 star rating, good energy economy? one that keeps you safer in a storm? one that makes us good stewards of the earths resouces?
Unfortunately most people will take the Yugo

Just like shopping for a car you must weigh all the options, but if you make mistake your not in it for the next 30 years
what do you think gasoline will cost in the next 15 years? and what do you think electric will cost in the next 15 years? You can trade out of a bad car a lot easier than a house.

The smart money is to invest wisely






Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
Greg FreyermuthUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:131

--
25 Feb 2008 05:41 PM
Couple of points:

1. Chris, what is a composite panel with an EZ lock?
2. If you were consistently in line with your competitors are there those that would still resist SIP's?
3. Surely you can find 2% and how much of that could you save if you did more sub-assembly in your facility?

Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Cell
gregfreyermuth@elp.rr.com


Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563
GregFreyermuth@energreensips.com
www.energreensips.com
ReadyToRetireUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:212

--
26 Feb 2008 04:05 PM
Chris,

Out of curiosity, can you think of any common threads on the jobs that came in lower than the stick-build bids? 

Very respectfully,
Larry


cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3644
Avatar

--
26 Feb 2008 05:36 PM
Posted By ReadyToRetire on 02/26/2008 4:05 PM
Chris,

Out of curiosity, can you think of any common threads on the jobs that came in lower than the stick-build bids? 

Very respectfully,
Larry

Larry;

Can't really put my finger on anything in common; the attached photo shows the finished home that is not on our web site yet



Attachment: boltin 001.JPG

Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
Greg FreyermuthUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:131

--
26 Feb 2008 06:15 PM
It's a beautiful home indeed, but what is the difference between this and a stick built home cost wise? What systems were directly effected by the use of steel SIP's? I think these were the questions that started the thread. If you had built this house with conventional methods, would there have been a time difference?

Greg


Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563
GregFreyermuth@energreensips.com
www.energreensips.com
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3644
Avatar

--
26 Feb 2008 06:59 PM
Greg;


Don't know what the difference is exactly all I know is we where bidding against 2 stick builder and we came in with low bid
This system saved a least 3 weeks labor.............. and framing, insulation, dry-in, soffit & fascia where all done at one time as a result of the steel SIPs
Since you accomplish several trades all at once you also save the time and agrivation to schedule trusses, insulation and soffit/fascia, plus no crane is necessary to set roof


Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
JellyUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:798

--
27 Feb 2008 03:38 AM
Nice house, Chris. Is there living space behind that window at the top of the gable on the left side of the facade? Did you just hang steel floor joists from the tops of the side walls to create it?


Marc&KemUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:50

--
27 Feb 2008 04:59 AM

Great analogy Chris. That's the kinda stuff that gets us thinkin!

Greg I believe you have a point with "What is the common thread?".

Another thought came to me as my wife and I began discussing floor plans. What a great open floor plan home. Structurally there must be savings associated by not having to install as many structural supports.
Here we go again, what kind of car are we talking about.
The common thread could be associated to climate and panel thickness or just simplicity. Framing out doors, windows or installing a heavy complicated roof could be the key.

Oooh noooo, I'm wanting to write something like "If your not using SIP's why build" for my closing. Hmmm. It probably was an SIP home that killed the wicked Witch? Pardon me, Just getting over the bug and medication is necessary evil.

Marc



cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3644
Avatar

--
27 Feb 2008 09:30 AM
Posted By Jelly on 02/27/2008 3:38 AM
Nice house, Chris. Is there living space behind that window at the top of the gable on the left side of the facade? Did you just hang steel floor joists from the tops of the side walls to create it?
Jelly,


There is a storage loft above the garage . the following photo shows steel joists as plywood deck is going down. Yes the joist are hung from a receiving channel, that is attached to the wall panel skin and clear spanning 24ft. across garage.   The dormer over the main roof is fake





Attachment: boltin loft.JPG

Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3644
Avatar

--
27 Feb 2008 09:38 AM
Posted By Marc&Kem on 02/27/2008 4:59 AM

The common thread could be associated to climate and panel thickness or just simplicity. Framing out doors, windows or installing a heavy complicated roof could be the key.

Oooh noooo, I'm wanting to write something like "If your not using SIP's why build" for my closing. Hmmm. It probably was an SIP home that killed the wicked Witch? Pardon me, Just getting over the bug and medication is necessary evil.

Marc
Marc;

I agree with that quote, if you are not going to build something better, just go buy an existing home.

The SIP home would have held together in cyclonic winds



Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
trigem1User is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:120

--
27 Feb 2008 12:01 PM
Mark,
I've been asked that question many times, about what costs more, and it just about impossible to answer. Like Chris said above, there are so many variables, it's hard to put a quantitive answer to it. If you were to build two identical stick built houses, one on one side of town and one on the other side of town, would the building costs be identical? Probably not. Different issues, different subs, etc. Personally, when I did the estimate for my house, I originally estimated for a stick built house, then found SIP's and used that. I was told it wold cost about the same, so I didn't change the estimate. When I was done and went from construction loan to permanent loan, I came out under budget. Some things were over, and some were under, so I still couldn't tell you if SIP's were a determining factor. All I can say with any amount of certainty is that it costs about as much, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.

Steve

www.GrandCountySIPs.com


Steve Etten
PanelCraftersUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:680

--
27 Feb 2008 01:03 PM
Posted By Marc&Kem on 02/25/2008 12:17 PM
"Just trying to stir up a comment" don't get offended..... How about it JC, Steve or Chris you SIP guys are awefully quiet on this subject.

Actually, I'm on the road right now, so I'm not really keeping up with this forum. Cost? Geez, never been asked that before! Ok, measure all of your exterior walls, and include door and window openings. Take that square footage times $6 and there ya go. A Rough Estimate.

Now, for your homework, figure out how much a square foot of framed wall costs, including insulation & exterior OSB. The difference is how much more or less that a SIP wall costs. Don't forget labor! Not so easy is it?


....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
Greg FreyermuthUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:131

--
27 Feb 2008 05:43 PM
At the risk of beating a dead horse...

You have to go even further than that. Look at systems, and what other systems you can use since you are saving from the initial changes to insulation, HVAC and any other things that the SIP's allow you to do. My background and start is in furniture design and making. From there we moved into the incredibly lucrative world of custom cabinetry, (yuck, yuck). You have no idea how much time we would have saved if the walls had just been straight, no scribing, sanding or any other "creative" means of installation.

So you end up going line by line and comparing and introducing smaller here, larger there and substiture here and there. The hardest part is getting subs to play ball on a one off build, which puts the home owner at a distinct disadvantage regardless of whether you are using SIP's or crochet mallets. You literally have to hope subs are not busy and need work so you can get a fair price.

We are looking at doing entire walls (out of steel) to include plumbing and electrical in house and moving them to site. Fine Homebuilding, Nov. '06, had a great article on this to include the manufacturers of plumbing and electrical quick disconnect products. Again, great for the builder, but not for the one off guy. Because of the time and labor cost savings we will get a better cost to do sub assembly work rather than pay tradesmen to do the work on site at the mercy of mother nature.

My long winded point is, these are all hard dollar advantages the SIP's builder has over the conventional builder. After all building is an exact science, no it's not, wait yes it is....

Greg



Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563
GregFreyermuth@energreensips.com
www.energreensips.com
PaulcfUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:27

--
01 Mar 2008 01:17 PM
Wow, good points everyone! I get tired and tired of the same old dumb question, how much more? I reply how long is a string? If the first question is cost, I typically walk away, they have not done their research. There is no 'hunger'. They will NOT buy. In sales, I love to lose early, saves me a LOT of time and expense.

I like the car buying analogy, and I use that too. There's a reason why there's Kia's on the road and Lexus' (Lexi?). If it's cost, then I suggest to the homebuyer to look elsewhere, and remind them that home ownership is like sex: a few minutes of elation (the building/buying process) and then 25 years of keeping it and feeding it (child growing up). Not to negate child raising but you know the real cost is the long term costs, not the initial cost. Many people are so near sighted when it comes to cars and building a house. Tract builders focus buyers like dumb oxen to look at pretty decorations and baubles in the house instead of the true beauty of SIPs.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

If you're not building with SIPs, why bother?


You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 512345 > >>


Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: Deborah Marshall New Today New Today: 1 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 4 User Count Overall: 28579
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 211 Members Members: 20 Total Total: 231

GreenBuildingTalk

Welcome to GreenBuildingTalk, the largest, most active forum on green building. While you can browse the site as a guest, you need to register in order to post.

Register Member Login Forum Home

Search Directory

Professionals Products

Get Free Quotes

Tell us about your building project and get free quotes from green building professionals. It's fast & easy! Click here to get your free quote.

Site Sponsors

For Advertising Info:
Call 866-316-5300 or 312-223-1600

Professionals Serving Your Area:

Newsletter

Read the latest GBT Newsletter!

Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement  Free Quotes  Professional Directory  Advertising Programs