I'm considering using SCIPs for interior walls in a warehouse building in Rhode Island.

Does anyone know of any SCIP suppliers/builders in RI/Mass/ the Northeast? I found a 1990s article about 'Maine Built Structures, a division of Shotcrete Systems International, Lincolnville, Maine' building SCIP/shotcrete houses in RI, but have not come up with recent info about this company or other suppliers specifically dealing with SCIPs in the Northeast. Is attempting to build one's own panels feasible? would it raise code issues? I assume Thermal bridging would be less of an issue in this application.

-dialectric

Here is a neat product (See link)

flat precast prestressed
insulated concrete wall panels

Typical panel widths are either 12'-0, 10’-0” or 8’-0”, with special width pieces cast as required. Panels are typically 10” or 12”
thick, depending on insulation and/or structural requirements.

http://www.hansonpipeandprecast.com/structural/pdfs/wall_panel_design.pdf

I am looking for the history of SCIP systems.
40s used for fences?
50-60s Archer?
70s gets a bit clearer
Any information , names , timeline would be a great help.
Rich

dialectric
Contact me at richard  at simsbuilt  dot  com

Posted By HurriQuake Homes on 04 Jun 2010 08:07 PM
I am looking for the history of SCIP systems.
40s used for fences?
50-60s Archer?
70s gets a bit clearer
Any information , names , timeline would be a great help.
Rich

Rich;

This company produces a "consip" wall (SCIP) and a "econosip" wall (alum SIP)


http://www.rhinowallsystems.com/introduction.htm

SCIP came in about five years after SIPs.
History is sketchy at best; I have run down many dead ends. After I think I have reasonable time line I will post up.
Part of my interest is I am building the first SCIP home in Denver.
Problem # 1 I have with SCIPs is cost.
Till recently the costs were comparable to SIP and ICFs about 30 to 40% higher than stick framing, R18 insulation, drywall and stucco systems.
I have found a group building panels coming in at or below stick framing system described above.
This is turn key ready for finishes of your choice. As my client is wanting an industrial look with metal, rock and the shot crete finished to brown coat finish my costs are a little lower that finished to color coat.
Problem #2 is finish. The two buildings I have found in Metro Denver were armature in finished at best. That is easily solved by hiring qualified finishers.
If you can see the lift lines sorry your guy sucks.
I have supervised thousands of feet of stucco I know what to look for before I hire a contractor. You need also to know what to tell them you will not accept.
I make all this clear in writing so we all know this is not a blow and go job.
I have just finished the foundation and will be finishing the underground and Amasond geothermal before the walls are set.
This house is 25’X35’X47’ tall and can be viewed on my Facebook page Richard C Sims.
Sorry it’s quicker loading pictures on FB than my website.
More later
Rich Sims

I meant to address thermal bridging.
Yes it only makes sense that to some extent there is some. I can not find the website, but I saw tests done and it was minimal.
I know of one company working to replace the steel with another material to prevent the bridging.
I have seen systems in Europe where they do not use steel.
I am not sure of the strength issues that removing the wire trusses may create.
The wire trusses was a major break through in the 90s that solved the wind load, span and multi stories issues that hampered the system previously.
Yes many houses have survived hurricanes I have seen pictures of houses that survived as recently as IKE.

Concerns I have been asked about

On a curved wall the EPS would create gaps on the exterior, leaving gaps of insulation.
(You can have the foam cut to any angle, shape or curve with out the gaps of using square blocks.)

How about running utilities inside the wall, making them inaccessible later .
(If the wire is run in conduit then then wire is always accessible, boxes and outlets how ever are not easily moved)

I've seen widely-ranging estimates of R-value.
(The R value varies as widely as the thickness used for the wall. How tight and did they fill the gaps are also factors)

How about running utilities inside the wall, making them inaccessible later .
(If the wire is run in conduit then then wire is always accessible, boxes and outlets how ever are not easily moved)

furr out wall for access is less than piping in conduit

Good overview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJekgKmro_Y&feature=related

Posted By jonr on 23 Jul 2010 06:48 PM


Good overview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJekgKmro_Y&feature=related

was a good video, it would be nice if they identified the number of days to erect and spray, looks very labor intensive, with specialized tools/equipment required

I think the big plus is that you end up with usable (for some) surfaces on both sides. An ICF plus stucco/plaster on both sides seems like a waste.

Perhaps another way to think of it is a steel SIP that is designed to be covered by stucco/plaster.

Posted By jonr on 24 Jul 2010 08:00 AM
I think the big plus is that you end up with usable (for some) surfaces on both sides. An ICF plus stucco/plaster on both sides seems like a waste.

Perhaps another way to think of it is a steel SIP that is designed to be covered by stucco/plaster.

we stucco many steel sips, my own home is stucco

We stucco over many , here are some examples




all arches, stuccoed square posts, sundeck floor , sundeck walls were done with steel sips and more pics and video are viewable at www.myspace.com/steelsips

stucco over SIPs

Mr. Kavala,

I live in brick country so I do not know anything about applying stucco over steel SIPs.  I have used SCIPS (InSteel) with shotcrete and then stucco but that is applying stucco to concrete.  Do you attach Diamond mesh and black paper to the SIPs and then apply three coats of stucco?  I ask because I may have a project soon that calls for stucco over steel SIPs.

> flat precast prestressed

In the case of scips, I would think that one could run post tension cables from side to side and top to bottom of the entire wall, through the foam. This would compress the outer concrete layers and add strength, reduce cracking and minimize steel. Post tensioning requires a special jack, but other than that, I don't understand why it isn't used more.

Posted By Alton on 24 Jul 2010 09:31 PM

Mr. Kavala,

I live in brick country so I do not know anything about applying stucco over steel SIPs.  I have used SCIPS (InSteel) with shotcrete and then stucco but that is applying stucco to concrete.  Do you attach Diamond mesh and black paper to the SIPs and then apply three coats of stucco?  I ask because I may have a project soon that calls for stucco over steel SIPs.

Alton;

Please call me Chris, my father does not participate in forum : )

Yes, you have the application correct, please note that where building officials require 2 layer barrier, the impervious steel skins are considered the first layer, backed lath the second

Thanks Chris.

I asked my engineer about replacing the steel with carbon fiber or Kevlar like we did in sports gear sometime ago.

As I am new to SCIPs I am not surprised to find this on the internet.

Carbon fiber reinforcing speeds

evolution of insulated wall panels

AltusGroup | 1-866-GO-ALTUS | www.altusprecast.com Page 1

 

Carbon fiber enables next-generation wall panels

As noted above, thermally efficient panels require a non-metallic device that transfers all the forces between the two wythes of concrete, regardless of the material used for wythe face reinforcement. AltusGroup precasters use a carbon reinforcement encapsulated in epoxy resin, to replace conventional devices that conduct heat or cold between wythes.

Non-corrosive and thermally low-conductive carbon fiber grid is cut to act in a manner similar to the action of a truss, and then cast in the panel to create composite action. In addition, the non-composite and partially composite panels are both made with either prestressing or conventional reinforcement in each wythe.

Thermal efficiencies yield improved R-values

Insulated wall panels with a thermally efficient system will decrease the energy required to heat or cool the structure compared with conventional precast sandwich walls. The American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers’ (ASHRAE) guidelines consider the weight of the wall system in relation to the geography of the installation.

For example, when comparing a wood stud wall or a metal stud wall to the insulated concrete sandwich wall panel, the U-value required for the concrete panel will be higher, which means the R-value will be lower. Why? The concrete wythe inside the building will store energy and reduce the energy demand on the structure’s HVAC system.

The use of carbon fiber grid as trusses or “shear grid” has enabled significantly improved thermal performance. Again, because carbon grid has low thermal conductivity because of its low mass, it prevents the inter-wythe transfer of heat or cold. The insulation between the wythes can deliver nearly 100 percent of its rated performance without the hot spots or cold spots typically found with thermally conductive metal trusses.

 

 

Hi Rick,

We spoke about 2 months ago about the thermal bridging. We at Forza concentrate on supplying our Artzer Z-Panel to projects below the 30th parallel in the Northern hemisphere. Yes, using a thicker foam core does reduce the bridging effect, but many builders don't like a 10" wall. Our R&D is working on this issue. We recently signed a letter of intent with a local firm to use a bio-based EPS foam core. This may help solve this problem. We'll keep you posted.

Joel King
Dir., Investor Relations
Forza Environmental Building Products, Inc.
www.forzaenvironmental.com
Stock Smbl: GUGO