Samantha85
New Member
Posts:6
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| 11 Mar 2008 09:37 AM |
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Hi guys,
Firstly I just have to say how informative and helpful this forum is, after researching SIPs for many months now I have finally come across this "little goldmine". So hopefully someone on here can help me out.
Ok so im a Architectural Technology Student from Scotland currently undertaking my dissertation on SIPs. My dissertation is basically on SIPs as a sustainable construction material in the UK and their future in the UK construction industry. This will include an analysis on SIPS compared to traditional timber framed construction (stick frame) from the manufacturing process all the way through to their building property characteristics. This is to show SIPS have just as good, if not superior performance history etc. While carrying out research I noticed that SIPS are still fairly unheard of in the UK which I found very surprising due to the many advantages in their use. Therefor I would like to concentrate part of my dissertation on why this is the case, what can be done to raise their profile to the level in the America just now and also the future of SIPs in the UK from a professional point of view( I realise this involves alot of guess work). Does anybody have any opinions on this?
First Request
I would love to include some case studies to show a realistic example of a SIPs construction(warts and all)...would anybody be willing to allow me to use their building(who has pictures of the construction) and answer some basic questions I have about the build?
Second Request
Does anyone know where I can find a good cost analysis of SIPs compared with Timber frame construction?
Thank you so much for any response and help. I will acknowledge your help fully in my dissertation.
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John in the OC
New Member
Posts:79
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| 11 Mar 2008 10:45 AM |
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Samantha85
Some if not most of your questions may be answered in Michael Morely's book "Structual Insulated Panels(SIPS)" <- avaiable on line...
ps bring us over some Lagavlin 16 please (LOL) |
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Rosanne
New Member
Posts:7
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| 19 Mar 2008 10:25 AM |
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Samantha, You could go to our website (www.suretight.com) for photos under the heading recent Suretight Projects. There is also some dwgs. of construction details. Many people use SIPS over timberframing because the insulation is built in. Hope this helps. Rosanne - Suretight Insulated Panels |
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PremierC
New Member
Posts:10
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| 27 Mar 2008 01:00 PM |
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Try SIPA.org for more info ( Structual Insulated Panel Association ) |
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congacox
New Member
Posts:16
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| 27 Mar 2008 08:07 PM |
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Dear Samantha,
Have you clicked on the "learning Center" link in the left sidebar column on this page? It has a tremendous amount of material and links. The link to the Juneau roof problem would be of special interest in your clime.
Have you read the articles by Bill Chaleff? Some of the problems for your area may be related to the facing materials commonly used (OSB). Just because the SIP is waterproof the face needs to be protected with a drainage plane or other solution.
I'm just studying up on the processes for my future use, but I think that tradition may have a lot to do with the lack of acceptance in your area. Most homes I've seen on TV from GB and Scottland have a lot of detail and a more ornate look than many SIP structures. I know you can build anything you want with SIPs; they seem best used with longer run lines, plain walls, open interiors and vaulted spaces.
Just some thoughts...
sc |
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Samantha85
New Member
Posts:6
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| 30 Mar 2008 08:29 PM |
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Thanks to everyone for their advice and help. It is appreciated. |
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Joe 1
New Member
Posts:1
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| 12 Feb 2009 08:50 AM |
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Hi Samantha85,
I am a mature student doing a similar dissertaiton on "SIP Technology - A soloution to zero carbon dwellings".
Can you advise on journals to review or any source of reference material. I'm finding the going tough as I haven't researched materaial for years.
Joe |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:1649
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| 12 Feb 2009 09:14 AM |
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Joe;
drop me an email to chris@southernsips.com
and I'll be glad to send you info from BASF about many types of SIP technology |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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JeffD
Basic Member
Posts:107
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| 12 Feb 2009 10:45 PM |
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Building tradition is one of the most difficult things to overcome. Builders will gravitate to what they know and understand. They have their costs nailed down for their familiar building systems. This creataes a comfort zone. I think this paradine is changing. Builders are starting to understand they need to be familair with a number of different building systems to be competative with one another and to build a structure that best suits the customer. |
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Metal SIP Building Designer
jeff@panelfusion(dot com) |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:1649
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| 13 Feb 2009 06:07 AM |
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Jeff;
SIPs sales are consumer driven, as you said builders typically don't want to get out of their comfort zone.
In the recent years with buidling code changes and energy efficiency changes, conventional builders have had to adapt to keep up by adding costs to their methods, while SIP construction (at least Steel SIPs) have not had to do anything to keep up with the newer codes.
Because of that, Steel SIPs have gradually become very competitve and in some cases less money that conventional.
There will be a tipping point when SIPs will become attractive to the "stone age"builders for their own personal gain. |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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stonecaveman
New Member
Posts:84
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| 17 Feb 2009 08:40 AM |
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It's more than the builder comfort zone. As a homeowner, walls are a cost. I shell out cash and I get walls. The cost is _about_ the same whether it's SIPS or stick.
If I'm a builder, stick framing is a profit center. Framing is how the crew gets paid. They're paid by the hour for work that they do. In a building boom, this might not be so important. A few days less work framing means a little less money, but gets the job finished sooner so on to the next. But we're not in a building boom.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:1649
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| 17 Feb 2009 09:19 AM |
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Stonecaveman;
This is a reality, before we had our own crews to build with sips, the framing subcontractor would not offer up any less money to use sips as it was taking money out of his pocket.
A reason we now contol our own destiny with our employees rather than subs |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Panelhead
New Member
Posts:12
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| 17 Feb 2009 10:29 PM |
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Posted By JeffD on 02/12/2009 10:45 PM
Building tradition is one of the most difficult things to overcome. Builders will gravitate to what they know and understand. They have their costs nailed down for their familiar building systems. This creataes a comfort zone. I think this paradine is changing. Builders are starting to understand they need to be familair with a number of different building systems to be competative with one another and to build a structure that best suits the customer. It's easy to overcome building tradition in an economy like this I believe the phase "Innovate or Die" comes to mind. |
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Alton
Advanced Member
Posts:663
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| 18 Feb 2009 09:56 AM |
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Builder's do have their comfort zones. When I tried to get an experienced builder to use SIPS in my subdivision, he told me that he did not have time to go for training. I then told him that he would not have to travel, the rep would come to my subdivision and train him and his crew. He then told me that learning a new system would take time away from the golf course. In other words, he was not interested. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
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Haddock@Thermasave
New Member
Posts:11
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| 18 Feb 2009 02:36 PM |
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Hi There Scotland:
We had a man come to our company and do a study comparing prices etc. His name is Paul Sharp from Home Builders Network. His comparison study was very favorable to SIPS. If I could get your email address I would send it to you.
We build SIPS using fiber cement board instead of OSB and eliminate the problems with moisture and mold. We have an International Code Council Report Number and would be happy to help you with your questions.
Good luck to you with your dissertation.
Judy
ihsnthermasave@yahoo.com
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scott bartels
New Member
Posts:3
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| 05 Mar 2009 04:46 PM |
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Hi Chris, Simon and Samantha85( if she is still involved)
There are not to many builders in south Florida that know what a comfort zone is anymore! Maybe it is a good time for them to change to SIP Systems. Things are going our way. For us panel fanatics , the SIP revolution is the best way we can help teach this country to save.
Back to Samantha's general questions of price comparisons, I question if she meant Timber Frame (Heavy Timber) or stick Framing. Either way, some discussion about cost comparisons , including quantification about life cycle and carbon footprint expenses might bring more builders to our side due to the new demands of educated owners. Soon(?) it will be unpatriotic to build a poorly performing home and we know we have a top performer.
Builders are not all set in their ways , some of them (present company included) like to take the easy way!
scottbartels@fabs.us |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:1649
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| 05 Mar 2009 06:11 PM |
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Hey Scott;
You hit the nail right on the head!
Your are preaching to the choir.
The easy way, if the conventional builders carefully analyzed their costs, time and efforts in scheduling multiple trades. They would realize that steel SIPs are the easy way |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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bubst
New Member
Posts:1
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| 05 Mar 2009 08:17 PM |
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I live in Wisconsin and when we use to build houses here I remember contractors using OSB sheathing on the roofs and walls of stick built homes. Assuming we are worried about moisture what would be the difference between and standard OSB roof and a SIPS OSB roof? Maybe this is a dumb question, but I don’t think so! |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:1649
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| 06 Mar 2009 05:18 AM |
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Posted By bubst on 03/05/2009 8:17 PM
I live in Wisconsin and when we use to build houses here I remember contractors using OSB sheathing on the roofs and walls of stick built homes. Assuming we are worried about moisture what would be the difference between and standard OSB roof and a SIPS OSB roof? Maybe this is a dumb question, but I don’t think so! Bubst; no difference, just bigger sheets |
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Chris Kavala
info@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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brankulo
New Member
Posts:12
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| 07 Mar 2009 08:58 PM |
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for our upcoming project, we were set with sips for a long time. after doing a lot of research and comparisons, we ditched the idea and are going with stick framing, however little differently. here is what we are doing:
1) we are going to use double 2x4 walls with staggered studs with 2x8 sill and top plates. this will eliminate any thermal bridging in the walls and corners. with sips, you can use insulated connector pieces instead of dimensional lumber but it is additional cost.
2) we will insulate first 2" of cavity with closed cell insulation, to seal the building envelope. this will give us R value of 14. rest of the cavity (5.25") will be filled with blown in wet cellulose, giving us r value of around 18, so together overall R value of this system is 32. same as exp core 8" thick sip panel, for about half the cost. if you are using insul connector in sips to avoid thermal bridging, than the difference is even bigger.
3) also you need to realize with using sips, you need to design around them. also wiring labor will be more expensive, and you have less flexibility down the road.
so my conclusion is that you can do same or even better performing system traditional way for about half the cost. also i didnt mention additional cost for delivering sips (local lumber yard will deliver dimensional lumber for free), sip drawings, equipment / lift for unloading and lifting sips. |
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