We have purchased (are paying for!) 11 vacant, rather expensive acres in SE Michigan (coincidentally, very near Insulspan HQ), and will begin a build/pay-as-you-go project for our last home starting in 2 to 3 years (did I mention paying for that land?).  It will have a walkout ICF basement, with a house above using SIPs for walls and roof.  The semi-attached garage/apt above may be stick framed or SIP.  OK, that was the high level summary.

We will eventually turn this place into a small farm.  I would like to build, this year, a 24x40-ish shed to begin storing things (mower, chipper, tools, stuff we move over from our current home, etc.)  This building will someday, 5 to 10 years down the road, be the "implement shed" and will also house a woodworking shop, plus storage.

I think this building would be a perfect "test" project for the use of SIPs, but cash flow is very low right now, and cost is a serious concern.  I have read on this forum that the most economical way to use SIPs is to take advantage of full size panels.  So...

--  if panels are 8x24 or 8x32 feet (I have heard both - which is correct? mfr specific?), and
--  if I use the same thickness panels, say 6.5 inch, for walls and roof (not going for R58 roof), and
--  if I lay panels on their side for 8 ft walls, and
--  if I lay panels the long way from eave to ridge, and
--  if I use 8/12 attic trusses (to get the attic storage space), and
--  if the building is ~24x40 feet with a single 10 ft wide garage door and 3 ft entry door, then

I should be able to build the walls and cover the trusses with nine (9) 8x32 or twelve (12) 8x24 panels.  I will cut them myself, install splines, plates, door headers, any windows (few at first).

I want to get an idea, a budgetary guesstimate, for what the SIP part of this project would cost me.  Can anyone here help me?  If not, will panel companies talk to me?  give me the time of day?

What I want to know is:  how large are bare, full size panels?  Can I even purchase them this way?  What is the price of 9 or 12 of them?  Will 9 or 12 amount to a single truck's worth for delivery purposes?  What would the delivery charge be for a 50 mile one-way trip?

Any ideas or help would be appreciated.  Any and all feedback is welcome.  And thanks in advance!

~Allen

SIPS where I am are usually 8x4. I did not know you could get them the sizes you quoted.

For 8x4 the thinner ones around where I am are $100 and something each, the ones I was looking at were $200 and something each.

The ones I have spoken to are very keen to sell their product.

Could you provide contact info of companies make 4x8 sips?

We build with 4' x 8' but this may not be the best solution. SIPs have to be evaluated with a holistic approach. If you are using 8' x 24' panels you are also using ridge beams. If you are using 4' x 8' you are using trusses. We also build with 4' x 20' and these are great for balloon framing, which is better in certain applications.

It is easy to buy into certain paradigms about speed of building, but before you do take a look at everything on site that cost you when you build. How much does that crane cost and hoem many people are on the ground and on the roof? Can you get panels up and on the roof more efficiently by hand using smaller panels?

I am not saying I have all the answers, just make certain your project costing processes go deeper than "Accepted" paradigms of SIP building.

Give me a call or drop me an e-mail, Allen, I will be more than happy to visit with you about this.

I was getting prices around 3.50-4.00 sqft for raw 8'x24' 6.5" EPS panels. when I looked around for a complete package I was offered 6.5" EPS panels for around $5.00. But this price included: screws, custom cutting, sealant, sill plates and all 2x lumber pre-installed (where possible) and splines.

No way I could supply all the materials and labor to finish the raw panels for under $1.50 /sqft. Price it both ways, you maybe surprised at the results.

GuyB,

I mean no offense by this but think about what you just said. If you were going to pay $3.50 per square for a jumbo panel, this not a bad price, but to then add $1.50 per square foot is adding $288.00 per panel. I cannot for the life of me figure what is going into that panel that would drive up the price $288 per panel. If you attach lumber and use some EPS glue and throw in a few screws, I would look hard at the break down of the additional pricing.

2" x 6" x 24' Timberstrand LSL is only $45 and you need but two that's $90 and the foam. Even with double LSL's across the top of the panels and the pressure treated base board you cannot get anywhere near $288. You need to have these guys break it out for you or call someone else to get a second bid. All in those jumbo's should be $4-$4.25 per sq. ft.

What I meant to say was I found the difference in price between raw jumbo panels and a complete ready to assemble package is $1.50 sqft. While you numbers make sense. I think if you sit down and calculate all of the things that are required to transform a raw panel into a finished panel, the cost of lumber is irrelevant. For instance consider the labor required for openings (windows, doors, beam pockets, etc...):

Layout
Cut out the openings
rabbit the foam opening
cut and install framing lumber (lets forget the price of 2 or 3 2x6s)
sealant, glue, splines, screws etc...

I would suggest that these activities would cost the same (labor only) for raw SIP panels as for stick construction. $1.50 sq ft is a bargain given our labor rates (NYC). In this case we had 12 round top windows. All precision cut with blocking installed.

Also ask yourself what sort of throughput you can achieve using a computer detailed and CNC cut panel (lets not forget that someone had to pay for the computer operators labor) versus field cut raw panels. I would suggest a good crew could pick right off of the truck and place 60% of the wall panels on a custom house without getting close to a demurrage charge. we could practically install flashing and windows on the flat deck prior to placing the panels.

Finally at $5/sqft I am paying for actual sqft used. Waste is the mfg problem to optimize for profit (obviously it is in the cost somehow, but it is clearly included in my calculus). With raw jumbos either the contractor has to spend the labor to layout the cuts to minimize waste or buy additional and dispose of the waste. How much labor is required to optimize those cuts? Are you accurately reflecting this cost in your overhead and thereby your labor rates?

I don't understand why someone would use SIPs for a large, unheated storage space. If this was me, I'd build the "back" half with SIPs and have that as a conditioned space/workshop (and live in it while I build my dream SIP home) and the front half as unheated storage/garage. I'd build a pole-barn and use blown-in, fiberglass, whatever to insulate the walls - good enough for the two or three times a year you might need to heat that space, and then invest more money in the SIPs for the heated space.

I think that the biggest saving in panels is not big vs. little panels, but a takeoff that optimizes panel use around windows. So, if you have 5x4 windows in an 8ft wall you need a 5x3 panel under the window, and cutting that out if an 8x4 panel is going to be wasteful. Cutting it out of a 10x4 and using the two halves under different windows would be better.

Again, no insult intended, but, yes we figure all those things in. In fact we do it for a living so I am prety sure we have most of it figured out.

Every panel doesn't get a cut, as a matter of fact only a scarce few of the roof panels get any cuts at all so you are actually distributing that cost over a lot of square footage. The foam is not rabbitted (sp), we buy it to size and place it into the foam with jigs so we do not have to rabbit it in. The 2 x's that you are using replace the spines or if you are using splines, you do not need 2 x's but for the sake of coversation let's say you have a window to buck in every third panel, divide the cost of the labor and lumber of 3 panels with 192 sq. ft. each or 576. The glue and sealant are one and the screws cost about $.60 each.

If you are charging extra to use a CNC then you were not yet at a run rate to afford it and your customers should not have to pay for your go big too fast decision for bells and whistles. The addition of a CNC should be to cut costs and replace headcount. You will not apply flashing prior as you want the flashing to over lap the sips not line up with them . About waste, we just built a 6000 sq. ft. billet for the prison guards in a W. Texas prison, and we did not have a dumpster on site. Everything was cut prior to loading it up. And remember our cuts in the plant cost a fraction of what a contractor would have to pay.

I don't care if your SIPs are being made in heaven by a band of angels, at $5 per sq. ft. you are getting hosed. There is a person who let us quote his place in the NE, I will not mention his name. With a $4,200 freight bill we were $3,500 cheaper than the folks right up the road and we did not even look at rail. It ain't that hard to make these things and it should not cost that much to buy them...

I am not sure we are talking about the same things. I am a contractor. I do not fabricate or sell panels, directly.

The houses I build are large and custom with 20-30 corners, offsets, lots and lots of round windows and french doors, round walls, etc..... Last house I built didn't have a single interior bearing wall. The entire floor and roof structure was supported by columns buried within the SIP walls.

We most certainly do flash 2nd story walls before erecting them. It is easy to figure out house wrap overlaps to make this possible.

At my labor rate I was happy to pay $5.00/sq ft for essentially prefabricated walls.

But, I don't want to argue with you. Give me some information on your company. I have another project that I am currently pricing. If you can fabricate the panels for $ 4.00/sqft you get the job.

I am reaching out to you as we speak. Here's to a long and mutually beneficial relationship!

amarlow,

Just wondering where exactly you bought and what the going rate was, if you dont mind me asking. The wifey and I just bought 5.25 acres in Salem Twp, Mi and plan on building in the next 12-18 months( starting, after we sell our current house) using sips and Timber Frame. Land around here seems to have inconsistent values i.e. we paid 40k for ours, just down the road 2 acre parcels are going for over 100k, similar terrain ,area. We live in Plymouth city right now.

There is Peninsula panel in Dexter, they have an affiliation with Insulspan I believe. Not sure where we are going to get our sips from yet. Got a price from Thermocore and probably will look into Insulspan. Looking into Geo Thermal? Im not sure it is worth it yet, need to examine further. Very tight budget considering the wife wants 45k$ wall paper (timber frame).






All the Best,

Todd Z

Posted By tzolk on 04 Mar 2010 10:18 AM
amarlow,

Just wondering where exactly you bought and what the going rate was, if you dont mind me asking. The wifey and I just bought 5.25 acres in Salem Twp, Mi and plan on building in the next 12-18 months( starting, after we sell our current house) using sips and Timber Frame. Land around here seems to have inconsistent values i.e. we paid 40k for ours, just down the road 2 acre parcels are going for over 100k, similar terrain ,area. We live in Plymouth city right now.

There is Peninsula panel in Dexter, they have an affiliation with Insulspan I believe. Not sure where we are going to get our sips from yet. Got a price from Thermocore and probably will look into Insulspan. Looking into Geo Thermal? Im not sure it is worth it yet, need to examine further. Very tight budget considering the wife wants 45k$ wall paper (timber frame).






All the Best,

Todd Z

Not to get too far off track, but $40,000 for 5 acres?  Holy cats!  We paid significantly more than that for our 1/3 acre lot!!!!!

I believe Peninsula Panel will do 8'x24' blank un-cut panels, at least thats what they said in their email response to me. EPS. Prices seem competitive .

jerkylips:

The land is septic and well, non sub division, dirt road and previous potential buyers couldn't find a spot that perked. Got lucky I guess.





All the Best,

Todd Z

Guy,

Let me first apologize. I got caught up in the same crap I scream at people about. I want you to use SIPs first and buy mine second and I came across as one of those flame on jerks who cannot wait to tell someone they did somethng wrong. My behavoir was most uncool.

I can supply you with Jumbo panels at $4 per square foot and I will quote anything you provide me to look at. I re-read what I wrote and realized I probably sent people packing from this website as opposed to making people feel comfortable about asking questions and providing data. What is paid in your area provides me a tactical advantage and rather than coming across as a resource I came across as an antagonist.

If you like send me something to look at, if you think you would prefer to do buinsess elsewhere, man I completely understand.

Todd Z,

I'm on the other side of Ann Arbor, ~SW corner of Zeeb & Ellsworth. It is a very special piece of property -- rolling hills, some woods, lots of more open space dotted with trees, a small pond (that is currently overflowing its banks with the snow melt), great soil (not clay). Even with all that beauty, I'm still embarrassed to tell the sale price. I never thought I'd spend anything close to $175k for ONLY eleven acres of bare ground, but I did. Location has a lot to do with the choice as well.

Like your wife, I had always (and I mean since I was a teenager in the early 70s) planned on a timber frame home. I have finally stopped putting it off the dream of a farm, but the high cost for the land, plus the loss of value in my current house, means I won't be able to have the timber frame. Bummer. But I also want a barn, and a big shed, and a bunch of goats, and a front end loader with a back hoe.... Can't have it all, I guess.

And yes to the geothermal. I spoke with every single geothermal company at the home show in Novi last month, making it clear I was going to do as much of the work as I could myself. They all said they will and do work with DIY owner/builders. If I dig the trench, refill after inspection, do all plumbing, including manifold for radiant PEX distribution, and let them sell me and install the heat exchanger, pumps, and ground loop, I think I can get it for ~$15 to $18k. Minus the 30% tax credit, and this is affordable to me.

OK, I know I've taken this away from the SIP purpose of the forum, so.... now back to your regularly scheduled program...

~Allen

Allen,
That is a VERY nice area. Ours is on Napier road just south of 8 mile, across from Maybury State Park. I know a guy who does excavation in your area if you need help just PM me. That SIP panel company is not too far from you, Dexter. We will be going through Vermont Frames. I wouldnt write off Timber frames being too expensive until you check out their site. Is that 15-18k for Geothermal after or before the credit? I added up our energy costs, supply-distribution-energy optimization-other- costs etc everything except taxes and Natural gas (consumers) came to $1.38 per therm and Electric( DTE) came to $3.38 per therm. Wondering if Geothermal is worth it considering the cost of NG. What kind of system are you considering, open loop, closed......?



All the Best,

Todd Z

Todd, I will PM you.
~Allen