Soundproofing SIPs against Roosters
Last Post 09 Apr 2010 05:47 AM by lambabbey. 41 Replies.
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lambabbeyUser is Offline
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04 Apr 2010 03:56 PM
I've read through a number of threads on here about the challenges of soundproofing a home made with SIPs.   One thing I've read again and again is that it makes a big difference as to the frequency of the sound you're trying to eliminate.    I'm going to be building a small cottage (1,050 sq ft) using SIPs from grade on up as well as for the roof.   I know this sounds like overkill, but I'll be going with 10 1/4" XPS SIPs both for the walls and roof, mostly for the extra insulation.   I'll also be using triple-glazed windows, both for thermal efficiency as well as a better sound barrier.    The cottage to be built is being constructed at an orchard / farm where there will be a large open-air chicken coop about 200 feet away with a decent number of roosters.   I'd like to come up with a solution for soundproofing two rooms on the second floor of this cottage (office and bedroom) from the inevitable crowing in the middle of the night. 

How would you folks go about soundproofing these rooms to keep out this particular type of noise?  Would a layer of a product like QuietRock 525 onto furring strips inside these rooms accomplish much?  The exterior of the cottage will be fiber cement shakes mounted over a 3/8" rainscreen product called Home Slicker, to provide draining and ventilation.  Should I consider going with furring strips instead beneath the fiber cement shakes to create more of an air break?  What other options should I be considering for soundproofing these two rooms?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.


John



John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
Union, ME 04862
orchard@lambabbey.com
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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04 Apr 2010 05:48 PM
John;

the furring on one side is sufficient for sound transmission break, as lon as you are using 10-1/4", you could use a double 2x4 plate top & bottom for a sound and thermal break
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
lambabbeyUser is Offline
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04 Apr 2010 07:54 PM
Chris:

I appreciate the response.

In a house this tiny though, losing 7" both in the length and width of a room is a big deal. I have no doubts your suggestion would work, but I'm hoping there's another way of solving the problem without resorting to 3 1/2" wall cavities in all four sides of these rooms.

How much of an air cavity is necessary for a sound transmission break?


John
John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
Union, ME 04862
orchard@lambabbey.com
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04 Apr 2010 08:39 PM
John;

not what I meant .... if your walls are 9-1/4" of foam,  instead of using one 2x10 plate,  use 2 - 2x 4s with 2-1/4" break in middle for thermal and noise isolation
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
lambabbeyUser is Offline
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04 Apr 2010 08:54 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 04 Apr 2010 08:39 PM
John;

not what I meant .... if your walls are 9-1/4" of foam,  instead of using one 2x10 plate,  use 2 - 2x 4s with 2-1/4" break in middle for thermal and noise isolation

Chris:

You lost me when you got to the 'plate' part.    I'm just the homeowner here, not the builder.    Are you suggesting scrapping the SIPs altogether when it comes to the construction of these two rooms?     If so, it sounds like a lot of extra expense from a design and labor standpoint, not to mention an added headache for the builder.   But I may not be following you here.    Dumb-this-down for me, will ya?    I don't want to sacrifice ANY of the R-value in these walls.

Out of curiosity, if I used 2x2s as furring strips behind some QuietRock 525 on the inside of these two rooms (giving me just a 1 1/2" deep air cavity) do you think that would be enough of a sound break to do the job?


John
John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
Union, ME 04862
orchard@lambabbey.com
firefoxUser is Offline
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04 Apr 2010 10:26 PM
The plate is what the wall sits on. Take two 2x4's lay them down on the foundation or slab.
they lay flat, not on edge. Leave a gap between them  for both an insulation thermal break and a sound break.
The 2x4s are secured to the foundation and the wall is then secured to the 2x4s with appropriate fasteners.
Bruce
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04 Apr 2010 10:30 PM

The top and bottom plates don't add to the wall width and are just the dimensional lumber on the top and bottom of the sip wall. 
I would say there are 3 main rules with noise isolation:
(1) You are always limited to your weakest link (i.e. thick room walls don't matter if you have an air gap under the door).
(2) The greater the combined density & thickness of the weakest link the greater the noise dampening (sound absorbtion).
(3) Sound also travels by vibrating assemblies.  Therefore creating dead airspace in assemblies helps divert sounds from traveling through the assembly.

The sound absorbtion mats and quiet rock drywall address rule 2 (and are relatively expensive).  What Chris was referring to on the top and bottom plates addresses rule 3 (and would have almost no cost difference other than labor).  Instead of one piece of dimensional lumber ("plate") the width of the SIP you have two pieces of lumber with an air gap in betwen them.  The plates are probably the weakest link (for sound) next to your windows and doors.

Of course I'm suprised to not have heard anyone suggest the most effective sound control method - A box of ammo and a 22.  But then I would have to add rule (4) source control.

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04 Apr 2010 10:54 PM

John,

Do you know about this product:  www.acoustiblok.com 

Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu, 334 826-3979
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04 Apr 2010 10:55 PM
Thanks, guys. It makes perfect sense now. I appreciate you spelling it out. I just wasn't aware that a simple sound break in just the plate would potentially have such an affect on deadening sound for the entire wall. Given that I would have virtually no insulation at top and bottom of each wall where the plates are located, would I not be creating a thermal sinkhole in place of sound problems? I'm curious how the R-value for the wall would drop with this cold pocket of air running the circumference of the top and bottom of each room. Any ideas?

Torben, as for the .22 and the ammo, I need the roosters for breeding the hens (I've got a half dozen breeds), otherwise the roosters would be long gone.


John
John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
Union, ME 04862
orchard@lambabbey.com
lambabbeyUser is Offline
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04 Apr 2010 11:01 PM
Alton:

I've been to their site before, but assumed the product would only work in a stud wall.

How would you envision this technology to work with SIP construction without having to lose valuable room space to sound breaks on each side of the Acoustiblok?



John
John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
Union, ME 04862
orchard@lambabbey.com
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05 Apr 2010 08:17 AM
Using hat channel on the walls then hanging drywall is effective, as is mass loaded vinyl. Soundproof assemblies are thicker; so if you want to truly accomplish that you are going to lose some footprint.
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05 Apr 2010 09:15 AM
OK John,
I can't resist.
Having grown up on a farm with the chicken pen only a hundred feet from my bedroom, I can't remember the roosters crowing in the middle of the night. Ours always started about daybreak. In fact, my dad said that a rooster who crowed in the dark was crazy and should immediately be removed from the breeding population and become the main course for dinner.
Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net
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05 Apr 2010 11:38 AM
Posted By lambabbey on 04 Apr 2010 10:55 PM
Thanks, guys. It makes perfect sense now. I appreciate you spelling it out. I just wasn't aware that a simple sound break in just the plate would potentially have such an affect on deadening sound for the entire wall. Given that I would have virtually no insulation at top and bottom of each wall where the plates are located, would I not be creating a thermal sinkhole in place of sound problems? I'm curious how the R-value for the wall would drop with this cold pocket of air running the circumference of the top and bottom of each room. Any ideas?

John


Assuming you caulk each plate top and side I wouldn't think you will loose any R-value. In fact you are providing an effective thermal break from interior to exterior, and may pick up R-value (simular to the thermal break detailed out for metal SIP panels).

Nathan
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05 Apr 2010 01:49 PM
I was wondering if putting up a sound absorbing wall at the chicken coop might be
a lot simpler and cheaper.  You will have to do the research on how to do it though.
Might be as simple as a straw bale wall with a waterproof covering.
Bruce
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05 Apr 2010 01:58 PM
Bruce:

I like how you think. Unfortunately, the chicken coop (to be built at the same time as the cottage) will be an open-air structure with the good part of the front wall completely open to the elements except for some screening.

It would be tough to soundproof an open wall


John
John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
Union, ME 04862
orchard@lambabbey.com
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05 Apr 2010 02:11 PM
I was thinking along the lines of the walls they put up next to freeways,
but not so elaborate. ie a wall between the coop and the cottage that would
absorb the bulk of the noise, not all of it.
This would make it cheaper to design the soundproofing in the house.
Bruce
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05 Apr 2010 04:54 PM
Dogs have anti-bark collars - don't they have crow collars for roosters?
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05 Apr 2010 05:16 PM
Thats on a different forum for mute roosters;

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums...30470.html

Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
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06 Apr 2010 08:36 AM
I've spoken with a number of soundproofing companies and am finding that there's really little that can be done with SIP construction to noticeably increase soundproofing short of adding a stud wall inside the SIPs and losing a chunk of valuable space. I'm being told that hat channels, products like QuietRock and Supress--even the air break in the plates beneath the SIPs--won't accomplish much unless done in conjunction with an inner stud wall that's at least 3 1/2" inches deep, ideally more. This wall can be filled with batt insulation between the studs, but the cavity is critical to making a SIP home noticeably more soundproof.

If this is true, it's really quite a downside to SIP construction.


John
John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
Union, ME 04862
orchard@lambabbey.com
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06 Apr 2010 09:23 AM
There are 3 methods to reducing sound transmission 1. provide cavity absorbtion 2.increase mass and 3.break the sound vibration path.

These are ratings for interior walls, but a standard 2x4 with 1/2 gyp on both sides is STC 34. Add insualtion and it's STC 39. Double the gypsum (2 layers both sides) and its STC 45. Now install hat channel on 1 side and you have STC 56. At STC 30 loud speech can be understood, STC 42 loud speech is audible as a murmur, STC 50 loud speech is not audible. And obviously windows, doors and other penatrations dillute the rating.

These ideas can be applied to any wall, I would look into mass loaded vinyl to keep it thin.
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