ROOF NOISE
Last Post 01 Dec 2013 11:09 PM by stepac. 55 Replies.
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SARobisonUser is Offline
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21 Apr 2010 11:18 AM
We recently (2007) built a house with a SIP shell (6" walls, 8" roof). Forget the fact that we can hear birds walkin' across the shingles - I want to know what all the LOUD popping noises are! My hunch is they are a result of expansion and contraction of the panels (?) due to outside temperature fluctuations, as they occur most often as the sun heats temps up in the earlier part of the day, and then again as temps cool as the sun sets. (On overcast days, whatever time of year, the popping does not happen as much if at all.) The popping is sometimes a small sound - almost inaudible. At other times, I can feel its vibration through the floor, and the sound is quite frightening, and will even wake me up at night. We have been up in the attic spaces and see no sign of anything coming apart :) The foundation - poured 9ft, 9"thick concrete walls show some hairline cracks normal with settling. All ceiling drywall seems fine - no nail pops. The popping has increased since we built - it was at first, occasional - now it's become almost "musical" in its frequency. Any ideas anyone? Anyone else had this experience? Thanks for any advice :)
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21 Apr 2010 11:50 AM
SARobinson;

only speculating there may be insufficient fasteners in the splines creating movement of panels independently, what area of the country are you in?
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
AltonUser is Offline
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21 Apr 2010 12:18 PM
Did you use OSB/EPS SIPS for the walls and roof?  What kind of splines were used to connect the panels?
Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu, 334 826-3979
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24 Apr 2010 01:20 PM
Yes,  we have the same type noise.  We built 9 years ago and it has not decreased at all.  It occurs most in morning sun and after sunset cooling.  We had a heavy snowfall this past winter with about a foot of snow on the room all winter.  We were concerned about the weight load.  It seems now the noise has increased this spring.  Not sure if it was due to the heavy weight.   But it is a little disconcerning.   Like the intial posting, we have not had any nail pops or wallboard cracking.  Hopefully it is not structurally unsafe as we have learned to live with noises.  But if we did have concerns about the structural soundness, any suggestions on who to hire to do some testing ?
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30 Apr 2010 11:34 AM
I built my house in 2006 with 10” thick Porter OSB SIP panels for the roof with 2X dimensional lumber splines. I have a vaulted ceiling with large panels and 12’ spans in the loft area and two flat roof dormers in the bedroom/bathroom area. My house is at 8600 ft in the Rocky Mountains. Since it was new, the roof over the loft area has made noises, usually in the evening shortly after the sunset. I was concerned and called the SIP rep and asked him about it, and he told me that with large roof panels in climates where there are fast, large temperature changes, it was not uncommon for the roof panels to make expansion and contraction noises. He called it SIP panel creep. As others have mentioned, I have not noticed damage or displacement of the ceiling, and now that I think about it, it’s been a couple of weeks since I’ve heard any noise.

Steve
GrandCountySIPs.com
Steve Etten
cfluckyUser is Offline
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30 Apr 2010 12:15 PM
Steve, Thanks for sharing your info. Coincidently, your roof design sounds very similar to mine, i.e. the vaulted ceiling with the flat roof dormer. That is where i hear a good deal of the cracks, where the dormer support wall sets on the roof sip.

I have also noticed this spring when we get rainy, humid weather the popping noice decreases dramatically and even stops. Do you think that should be a concern ?

Fred
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30 Apr 2010 01:15 PM
Fred,

I think there’s a combination of things going on here. First, during this kind of weather, there’s not much temperature variation, and second, wood products tends to swell a little when it’s damp, so the panels will fit a little tighter and not move around very much. I don’t believe it’s anything to be concerned about. I have given this issue some thought, and I’m going to suggest to my clients in the future to use a flexible glue along the top of the supporting beams between the panels and beams to absorb some of this movement and eliminate noise.

Steve
GrandCountySIPs.com
Steve Etten
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02 May 2010 07:22 PM
trigem1,

From experience, glue applied to the tops of beams and walls, before the panels are set, works great to reduce panel expansion and contraction noises.
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wire10gaUser is Offline
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19 May 2010 01:15 PM
Newbie questions here, but if the sip roof is covered with a steel roofing instead of shingles, would you still get noise issue?
In the planning stages of my home, and am looking at steel sips for the roof deck with steel roofing over the sip deck and would prefer not to have a noise issues.
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19 May 2010 02:46 PM
furring strips on the inside of any sip helps isolate sound also a thicker panel is beneficial
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
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19 May 2010 09:11 PM
I have found that a bituminous roll underlayment applied directly to the steel sip, prior to a roof finish, substantially reduces rain vibration and exterior noise transmission.
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panelwrightUser is Offline
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19 May 2010 09:22 PM
The SIP noise described as popping or creaking is a result of movement most commonly associated with heat. It can be as a result of moisture changes but only in OSB or cement skins. The metal skin is strictly a heat issue. The variations in expansion and contraction of two components cause a sudden slip that creates the noise. The greater the friction, the greater the noise. To reduce the friction use mastic, caulk, sill-seal, or similar at contact point (top of wall or top of beam) To eliminate variations in expansion and contraction, eliminate dissimilar material ie: keep the lumber out and away from your OSB or cement skin. The skin responds to heat quicker and the difference in heat related growth cause friction in the spline. Another good reason to let structural panels do the structural work and keep the unnecessary lumber out of your roof (not to mention the cost, added assembly time, and thermal bridging). The last recommendation to help minimize the noise is to buffer the heat transfer between roofing and SIP with a back ventilated roof. The firring strips that Chris mentioned only help on the outside. Unless the strips you were referring to were sound-isolating such as hat-channel. The thickness of the panel will not matter. The solid composite nature of a SIP allows it to transfer all contact sounds very well. Therefore any sound emanating from within the panel will easily transmit through the roof as a contact sound. If your building in a cold wet climate you should already be strongly considering a back-ventilated or self-ventilating roofing system. The dozens of projects I've investigated for noise were lumber laden and in many cases the proper application of mastic/sealant was in question. This may suggest that noisy panels are an indication of poor installation. I wouldn't make that blanket suggestion.

The good news is that most cases I follow report a reduction in noise after a period of a couple years. This would seem to suggest that the friction points are smoothing out. In addition, none of the projects with noise ever linked the offending sound to a structural defect.

Al Cobb
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19 May 2010 09:43 PM
Al;

I was refering to hat channel or RC-1 channel
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
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19 May 2010 09:44 PM
hat channels or RC-1 channel
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
k_radanovichUser is Offline
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04 Jun 2010 07:28 PM
One of the best ways to mitigate creep noise especially in hot climates is to build with a cold roof as mentioned. There is a new (tyvek type) building wrap that is made by DELTA that has airspace built into it. It is about the cost of Tyvek $1 a sq. ft. and eliminates the need for furring strips. That in addition to ridge venting is cheep insurance as some SIP manufacturers require a "cold" roof for their warrenty.
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chowardUser is Offline
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05 Jun 2010 02:26 AM

About SARobinson’s post with those birds that can be heard walking around on the SIP roof and all the other posts on this forum about SIP homeowner’s frustrations with the transmission of sound through their SIP walls…

 

The APA (aka The Engineered Wood Association) has an informative document on their website (apawood dot org) that is titled “Noise-Rated Systems” which includes a chart that describes the sound resistance of walls with different STC ratings.  The chart describes a wall assembly that is only rated STC 30 as “loud speech can be understood fairly well.”  According to one major SIP manufacturer’s technical bulletin on sound transmission, their OSB/EPS SIPs only have an STC rating of STC 28.  I have been told by a number of people who are knowledgeable about STC ratings that conventionally framed and insulated exterior walls have an STC rating of about STC 40.  The APA document describes a wall assembly that is rated STC 42 as “loud speech audible as a murmur.”  Another good source for information on STC ratings is a website called STC ratings dot com.  On their “Rules of Thumb” page it shows that a difference of plus (or minus) ten points in an STC rating creates a change in apparent loudness of half (or twice) as loud.  The North American Insulation Manufacturers Association’s (NAIMA) website at NAIMA dot org is also a good source of information on this subject.

 
The big question that needs to be answered here is are potential SIP homebuyers being informed by the SIP manufacturers, suppliers, and builders and the SIP industry of the difference between the sound resistance (airborne and surface contact) of SIP walls and traditionally framed and insulated exterior walls?  Are potential SIP homeowners being told that there are soundproofing materials that can be installed and other measures that can be taken during construction that can increase the STC rating of SIP walls significantly and bring them up to the standards of traditionally framed construction?  See soundproof drywall, resilient furring channels and other methods of increasing the STC ratings of exterior walls.


I suggest trying to carry on a conversation through an exterior SIP wall (one without added soundproofing measures) and then attempting to do the same through a conventionally framed and insulated exterior wall. 
The SIP industry needs to be completely honest and upfront about this issue.  The many posts that are on this forum about this subject show that there are a lot of suffering and puzzled SIP homeowners that are looking for honest answers. 

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05 Jun 2010 07:09 AM
choward;
 
the SIP industry needs to start recommending furring for sound control, something we have done for years, steel hat channels are just 25 cent a foot and an effective / economical way to dampen sound with an air space
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
trigem1User is Online
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05 Jun 2010 02:33 PM
Ok, this is real unscientific with no data to back it up, but I've had many comments from visitors that my house was the quietest house they had ever been in. I’ve got the Colorado River right down below me and it’s running very high and is very noisy. If you open a door or window, the sound is very noticeable. When you close the door or window, you can’t hear it at all. And, if the doors and windows are closed, the dogs can’t hear a car come into my gravel driveway. So, I’d like to see some definitive tests as to transfer of common sounds, manufacturer, thickness of the SIP’s, drywall on the inside, siding, sound transfer of high, sound medium and low pitched sounds. I think there are many variables that affect the transfer of sound through a wall, and establishing the common sounds that you will be faced with at your building sites, and taking the proper steps will diminish sound transfer at that site.

Steve
GrandCounty SIPs.com
Steve Etten
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07 Jun 2010 04:37 PM
Steve;

I think the noise issue is blown out of proportion by people that were under the impression that SIPs would make a dead silent building envelope. ........ I have heard those claims made.
I don't believe sound transmision in any sips house is worse than a frame house, I just believe that if people perceive that they would be extremely quiet, they are then hyper sensitive to any noise they hear. Like the guy who built next to the interstate highway.
During hurricane Charlie, we would never know there was a storm going on if we could not see the trees bending over.
I do like your common sense assessment ,I too think my house is the quietest house I ever lived in, not sound proof, but very quiet, with the doors and windows closed.
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
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10 Jun 2010 07:35 AM
Picture depicts a stand by generator just 16" from a SIP wall, when generator goes thru weekly run cycle it it very loud on the exterior, but in the master bedroom that is only 8ft. away on the interior side the generator cannot be heard.






Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
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