I've seen new hotels (about the size of this house :-)) going in with each room having an independent mini-split (vs any type of centralized system). I assume that they found this economical. Also far less disaster prone (ie, a centralized system failure).

Posted By Lbear on 28 Apr 2012 01:36 AM

Posted By Dana1 on 27 Apr 2012 04:11 PM

It's a kewl looking house, but it's a hygro-thermal nightmare, lacking capillary & thermal breaks, with huge heating & moisture related problems, as well as basic mechanical issue (sagging cantilevered concrete elements, etc.) It's been patch, jacked up and reinforced multiple times, but like the leaning tower of Pisa, long term prospects are dependent upon a significant ongoing engineering & repair budget.

But it's a pretty picture to look at, as long as you don't have to live in it, eh?

FLW was ahead of his time and unfortunately insulating technology lacked behind his designs. Of course when you build a home into the side of a waterfall and have a creek running through the home, one can only expect huge moisture related problems. If the home was built in a "normal" location, it would not have the same engineering and upkeep problems. The waterfall design incorporated concrete and steel. At least they didn't use wood, as it would have long rotted and fallen away.

The cantilevered concrete overhang was WAY under designed, and would have the same structural problems in any location. (In seismic zones it would be condemned.)  The moisture problem is just the moldy frosting on the cake.

Posted By jonr on 28 Apr 2012 12:28 PM
I've seen new hotels (about the size of this house :-)) going in with each room having an independent mini-split (vs any type of centralized system). I assume that they found this economical. Also far less disaster prone (ie, a centralized system failure).

Most motels use package units rather than mini split sand usually carry spares that allows them to easily slide the chassis in and out of the wall case when a failure occurs.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 28 Apr 2012 09:11 AM

6" walls and roof, 10.5 tons

Ha ha, it's so big it makes the panels look smaller than that.

7 split split heat pumps

What's that? Is that a ductless system?

What kind of thermostat and control system does it have?

a normal "split" system is ducted with air handlers and condensers, in this case 7 of each or 7 zones

Posted By jonr on 28 Apr 2012 12:28 PM
I've seen new hotels (about the size of this house :-)) going in with each room having an independent mini-split (vs any type of centralized system). I assume that they found this economical. Also far less disaster prone (ie, a centralized system failure).

They are called "PTAC".

It's basically a complete unit that has A/C and heating strips, some have heat pumps in them. They usually sit below the window and they have a metal sleeve that the unit sits in. As mentioned here, if he needs to be repaired it can be easily slid out and a new unit slid in.

Some hotels utilize corner PTAC units and those are vertical units that are usually hidden behind a paneling system.

These PTAC systems have been in use for many years now. I believe they go back to the 1970's.

Posted By cmkavala on 28 Apr 2012 06:03 AM


6" walls and roof, 10.5 tons

Will they be furring and doing drywall on the interior walls/ceiling?

Lbear; yes - 1-1/2" steel hi-hat furring on walls, 7/8" steel Hi-hat on vaulted ceilings. many custom drops with light guage framing

after Day 2....................................................................................

All I can say about this house is wow! that's "a-big-un". Nice catch Chris. You are definately doing some of the most interesting metal sip projects out there.

......................

What is the OLDEST metal SIP home/roof that you have seen? Were they around in the 1970s for residential?

Posted By Lbear on 15 May 2012 03:01 AM
What is the OLDEST metal SIP home/roof that you have seen? Were they around in the 1970s for residential?

Lbear;
I have been involved with metal SIPs since 1995, the older SIPs homes that I have personal knowlege about is in the late 80's
Commercially they date back to a least the 60's, maybe earlier

Posted By cmkavala on 15 May 2012 07:07 AM

Lbear;
I have been involved with metal SIPs since 1995, the older SIPs homes that I have personal knowlege about is in the late 80's
Commercially they date back to a least the 60's, maybe earlier

Have you seen any issues of weathering or glue issues with the ones from the residential 80's or the commercial ones from the 60's?

I have not seen any issues with EPS , only adhesion issues with Polyurethane, but no weathering issues with either

Posted By cmkavala on 15 May 2012 10:22 AM
I have not seen any issues with EPS , only adhesion issues with Polyurethane, but no weathering issues with either

So in theory these homes and roofs can still be intact 50 or 100 years from now? No glue failures and subsequent structural failure of the panels.

I'm just wondering HOW LONG can these panels stay together? A fastener can hold a piece of wood in place for 100 years and can be refastened even later on. If the glue came apart and the panel broke away from the EPS, the house would start to fall apart.

Just wondering...

Posted By Lbear on 15 May 2012 03:54 PM

Posted By cmkavala on 15 May 2012 10:22 AM
I have not seen any issues with EPS , only adhesion issues with Polyurethane, but no weathering issues with either

So in theory these homes and roofs can still be intact 50 or 100 years from now? No glue failures and subsequent structural failure of the panels.

I'm just wondering HOW LONG can these panels stay together? A fastener can hold a piece of wood in place for 100 years and can be refastened even later on. If the glue came apart and the panel broke away from the EPS, the house would start to fall apart.

Just wondering...

Yes , the same "theory" that holds together laminated plywood, glulam beams, TJI's and the like.
I don't hear a lot of failures for those products unless they get consderably wet.
Even auto manufacturers are now bonding together parts with glue

Posted By cmkavala on 15 May 2012 04:59 PM

Posted By Lbear on 15 May 2012 03:54 PM

So in theory these homes and roofs can still be intact 50 or 100 years from now? No glue failures and subsequent structural failure of the panels.

I'm just wondering HOW LONG can these panels stay together? A fastener can hold a piece of wood in place for 100 years and can be refastened even later on. If the glue came apart and the panel broke away from the EPS, the house would start to fall apart.

Just wondering...

Yes , the same "theory" that holds together laminated plywood, glulam beams, TJI's and the like.
I don't hear a lot of failures for those products unless they get consderably wet.
Even auto manufacturers are now bonding together parts with glue

Good points. Plywood, OSB, and other laminated wood structures are glued together. I believe they use heat and pressure as part of their manufacturing process.

With steel SIPs they are just glued, no heat, correct? How stringent is the quality control on the SIPs?

Posted By Lbear on 25 May 2012 09:58 PM

Posted By cmkavala on 15 May 2012 04:59 PM

Posted By Lbear on 15 May 2012 03:54 PM

So in theory these homes and roofs can still be intact 50 or 100 years from now? No glue failures and subsequent structural failure of the panels.

I'm just wondering HOW LONG can these panels stay together? A fastener can hold a piece of wood in place for 100 years and can be refastened even later on. If the glue came apart and the panel broke away from the EPS, the house would start to fall apart.

Just wondering...

Yes , the same "theory" that holds together laminated plywood, glulam beams, TJI's and the like.
I don't hear a lot of failures for those products unless they get consderably wet.
Even auto manufacturers are now bonding together parts with glue

Good points. Plywood, OSB, and other laminated wood structures are glued together. I believe they use heat and pressure as part of their manufacturing process.

With steel SIPs they are just glued, no heat, correct? How stringent is the quality control on the SIPs?

Lbear;
Not all steel SIP production lines are made the same.
The product we use is run on a continuous line machine in a controlled environment, the glue is a faster setting and as the panel travels thru the machine a set of rollers add pressure and heat to assist in the final bonding of the skin to the core.

updated photos. ...........................

Building is 83 feet wide with a triple hip in the back and 123 ft. deep.