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vb
New Member
Posts:88
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| 16 Apr 2013 10:27 PM |
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I used Premier in Washington and was very happy with them. My panels are treated with borate. I sure wish that some osb panel proponents would step in and speak up when these steel SIP guys use every post to further their own agenda. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 16 Apr 2013 11:41 PM |
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Posted By vb on 16 Apr 2013 10:27 PM
I used Premier in Washington and was very happy with them. My panels are treated with borate. I sure wish that some osb panel proponents would step in and speak up when these steel SIP guys use every post to further their own agenda.
No agenda here, the forum is open to opinions. As you know, the OSB/Wood SIP industry is HUGE and has SIPA behind it. Whenever you hear or read of SIPs, 99% of the time people know it's wood SIPs, only 1% of the time do people even know that metal SIPs even exists. Case-in-point, myself. I never heard of metal SIPs until I stumbled upon them from this forum. When I called SIPA they would NOT even mention or recommend metal SIPs, they only recommended OSB SIPs. I am an advocate of clear options. Post the pros and cons of both; OSB and Metal SIPs. Let the customer make the choice. Unfortunately the OSB SIP industry treats metal SIPs like they are the plague. They avoid mentioning that such a metal SIP even exists, unless you bring it up to them. If any industry needs further promotion and consumer education, it's the metal SIP industry. The OSB SIP industry has plenty of advertisement. Do a Google search and type "SIP" or "SIP panel" and all the 1st page hits are OSB SIPs. You won't find metal SIPs. For me, a metal SIP for the roof is a clear best choice. They are much, much lighter, stronger and can span greater distances (35 feet) than OSB. You also don't have to worry about the wood rotting, termites and moisture issues. Two guys can move a metal roof SIP panel without the need for a crane/hoist. Although I do wish they made a 20 or 22 gauge SIP metal panel. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Apr 2013 07:19 AM |
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Lbear,
22 gauge is an option with Kingspan in certain wall and roof panels. See http://www.kingspanpanels.us/
Do you want a panel with thicker metal so that it will be stronger or more resistant to hail? Even with 26 gauge, I have found SIP panels to be more than strong enough for my residential applications.
See http://www.leepinc.com/ for a panel with .019" (0.5 mm) metal skins that are very strong. The built in 'I-Beam" structural channel really adds to the strength and also provides an external wiring chase. So far, this panel is limited to being 4" thick with a maximum length of 12 feet.
Be aware that gauge measurements do not have consistency from one material to another. It is always best to measure in inches or millimeters. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 18 Apr 2013 12:47 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 17 Apr 2013 07:19 AM
Lbear,
Do you want a panel with thicker metal so that it will be stronger or more resistant to hail? Even with 26 gauge, I have found SIP panels to be more than strong enough for my residential applications.
It just seems that 26 gauge is really thin but like you mentioned, it is plenty strong and the strength is in the SIP itself. With a standing seam metal roof and a metal roof SIP, would a hail storm damage the SIP or cause it get severely dimpled? |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 18 Apr 2013 02:08 PM |
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I have no experience with hail damage to a metal skin SIP roof but my guess is that 26 gauge metal over 1 pound EPS will dimple. (Maybe Mr. Kavala will know if this can happen.) A metal skin SIP with a polyurethane 2+ pound core might not dimple as much.
Several years ago, one of my automobiles was damaged by hail to the point that the least expensive fix was to cut off the roof and weld another in place. Fortunately, the paint did not break. Since I did not like the idea of replacing the roof, I did not have this done. After a couple of hot summers, every dimple got hot enough that they popped out. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 18 Apr 2013 02:21 PM |
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Alton/Lbear,
I am not sure what the concern is anyway
the finished metal roof should be the concern, since it is what you can see.
We typically use a 24 ga. standing seam roof to help minimize oil canning.
but, wether the SIP dimples or not is of any consequence? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 18 Apr 2013 02:25 PM |
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A hail storm in Tx in the mid 90s, dropping 6 inch ice balls, made the list of top 10 insurance casualty losses of all time (since eclipsed by hurricanes no doubt.) Short answer: no roof is hail proof. From what i heard, steel roofs still shed water afterward but looked like h*ll. To add insult to injury, insurers denied those claims as cosmetic damage. CW in Tx is to apply steel over decking that can take a hit. It shouldn't be difficult to determine how much force it takes to make a pockmark in steel sips. To be clear, I think steel sips are great. But if they can't take a hit, and I were building in hail country, i'd check with my insurer before putting a steel roof over it. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 18 Apr 2013 02:32 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 18 Apr 2013 02:25 PM
A hail storm in Tx in the mid 90s, dropping 6 inch ice balls, made the list of top 10 insurance casualty losses of all time (since eclipsed by hurricanes no doubt.) Short answer: no roof is hail proof. From what i heard, steel roofs still shed water afterward but looked like h*ll. To add insult to injury, insurers denied those claims as cosmetic damage. CW in Tx is to apply steel over decking that can take a hit. It shouldn't be difficult to determine how much force it takes to make a pockmark in steel sips. To be clear, I think steel sips are great. But if they can't take a hit, and I were building in hail country, i'd check with my insurer before putting a steel roof over it.
Todd, what does the steel SIp have to do with getting hail damage under the finished roof? the SIP is not getting damaged the finished roof is what am I missing |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 18 Apr 2013 02:56 PM |
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Yes, the finished roof is being damaged, but it will be damaged more (i.e. the dents will be deeper) if the deck under it gives. You could shoot iceballs all day at 26 gauge steel in uniform contact wth concrete without leaving a mark. The same steel applied to hat channels on 12 inch centers would look like it went through WWIII. Again, the key factor is what will your insurance company tells you, which differs from state to state. I'd want steel rather than osb because water damage is much more likely than hail damage. But in Texas, I'd want roofing my insurance company will pay to replace. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 18 Apr 2013 03:14 PM |
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Todd,
there are no teste to verify wether it would give or not,
I do know that a 2 x4 -shot out of a cannon "projectile test" will not penetrate the first skin, without a covering.
I do know that a conventional plywood / truss roof has much more "give" than SIP roofs, any SIP roof!
not sure if you can design do prevent damage from 6" ice balls?, Blue ice or meteors. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 18 Apr 2013 03:46 PM |
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Since some of my clients are planning on having concrete roofs without any other covering, I wonder if 6" ice balls will damage the concrete. Will concrete withstand big hail stones dropped from a couple of miles. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 18 Apr 2013 04:13 PM |
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I'd like to hear more about concrete roofs without other coverings. For example, concrete often cracks, so is there a waterproof layer below it? I could imagine foam (glued or taped or overlapped) as a backup layer. Or some type of film.
Hail never effects thick concrete, but something like 1/2" might be a different story. |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 18 Apr 2013 04:46 PM |
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That storm broke windshields, sent people to the hospital and pretty much ruined every roof in its path, none of which to my knowledge were concrete. I am sure you could easily design a concrete roof that works. Im not sure you'd want to because the odds even of golf ball-sized hail hitting your house, as opposed to any house i n the local tv viewing area, are pretty high even in Texas.
Deformation and penetration are not the same Chris, the latter being helped by the fact that the metal is bending and the foam is compressing. If you can dent it with a hammer without much of a swing, then it isn't superior to CDX for hail purposes.
The Texas Department of Insurance has some good work on hail resistant roofing by virtue of certifying specific products as eligible for discounts. Back when I was paying attention, the best were stamped metal shakes, three dimensions on a small piece in a shingling style that hide dents pretty effectively. Alas they were expensive to buy and to install. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 18 Apr 2013 05:30 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 18 Apr 2013 02:21 PM
Alton/Lbear,
I am not sure what the concern is anyway
the finished metal roof should be the concern, since it is what you can see.
We typically use a 24 ga. standing seam roof to help minimize oil canning.
but, wether the SIP dimples or not is of any consequence?
So the damage from a strong hail storm would be aesthetic and in no way would affect the structural integrity of a steel roof SIP. It's not as if the dimpling or denting would somehow compromise the bond between the steel and EPS. Is that correct? I was thinking that to prevent any dimpling to the steel SIP maybe a rubberized underlayment between the standing seam metal roof and the SIP would work. Something like the Grace Vycor Plus or some similar rubberized underlayment. The standing seam metal roof would get dimpled but the rubberized underlayment would sort of cushion and protect the SIP roof beneath. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 18 Apr 2013 06:13 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 18 Apr 2013 03:46 PM
Since some of my clients are planning on having concrete roofs without any other covering, I wonder if 6" ice balls will damage the concrete. Will concrete withstand big hail stones dropped from a couple of miles.
Concrete wall tests were done and a 6" concrete/ICF wall had a 2x4 projectile shot at it at speeds of 100MPH and the wall did not crack or show signs of damage. The foam got blasted away but the concrete remained intact. I believe a concrete roof would be quite resilient to hail damage. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 18 Apr 2013 07:42 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 18 Apr 2013 04:13 PM
I'd like to hear more about concrete roofs without other coverings. For example, concrete often cracks, so is there a waterproof layer below it? I could imagine foam (glued or taped or overlapped) as a backup layer. Or some type of film.
Hail never affects thick concrete, but something like 1/2" might be a different story. jonr, We hope to reduce the chances of cracking by using water reducing admixtures to lower the water-to-cement ratio down to about 0.40. We want the mix to include plenty of fly ash to make the concrete less porous and to make the mix pump easier. (The very small, round fly ash particles act like ball bearings to offset the clogging effect of sand in the mix.) We intend to also add fiber to the mix to limit cracking. From slide lectures presented at Auburn University I have seen examples of bare concrete roofs that have been performing well for over 40 years. My current strategy is to pressure wash the concrete roof after at least 30 days. If the pressure washing exposes any leaks, repair them. If the repairs are effective, then no covering will be necessary. If roof leaks become a problem later on, then pressure wash the roof again, repair the leaks and if necessary, coat the concrete with an acrylic elastomeric material that has very good elongation and UV resistant properties. While the concrete is new we may treat the roof with a product like Armor S2000 or S3000 to deep seal the concrete. Cracks will need a different type of treatment such as injection. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 21 Apr 2013 10:00 AM |
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Sounds good. I think that fibers (like PVA) are a key part of reducing cracking. And wet curing. How thick will it be? I could see control joints filled with elastomeric caulk. Not sure that no cracks or control joints over a large (say 20'x50') area is possible (well, post tensioning could do it). In a non freezing climate, I'd be more comfortable with a roof where the concrete was the sun barrier and something underneath it was the water barrier. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 21 Apr 2013 10:54 AM |
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One plan with using Gulf Concrete Technology's PSG panels would have a continuous 2" thick, 5000 PSI slab over beam pockets containing rebar and concrete.
I would prefer a water barrier between two slabs but that would add to the cost. The plans may change somewhat before construction, depending upon homeowner and engineer. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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