This will be my third house built: first was definitely better than for my enemy, second could be bought by any friend of mine, and this third one will be definitely for me for longer time.  I plan on living in it for a while.  And this is why I want to build it wisely.  Now it will be smaller (considering my existing one) and it's supposed to be a triple E: ergonomics, efficiency, economics.  3,100 sq. ft. to be located just easy of Issaquah on a slightly sloping (towards North West) lot.  Footprint: 45 ft X 95 ft with the main level shaped like a letter 'C' and 2 bedrooms/bathrooms on the second floor.  Large courtyard in the belly of 'C'.  Mediterranean style with fairly simple wall arrangement lower pitch roof (no cathedral ceilings) and stucco and stone exterior finish.  Definitely radiant heated floors (some 6 or 7 zones) and a simple AC with an HRV.  The plans are now generic and need minor modifications to suit out needs.  Structural needs to be done to meet local codes.  SIPs are highly considered due to:

1. sturdiness (I hate shifting and not straight walls)
2. insulation (I like the idea of envelope closed conditioned space)
3. lower waste
4. quicker construction time

I have few questions:

1. should I even consider SIP roof?  There will be no cathedral ceilings. I don't want to spend extra $$$ for cold-roof.  Roof design is fairly simple and can be easily constructed using trusses and "standard' methods.  Roof material will be either some sort of tile or metal (imitating tile)
2. will I really be better off using SIPs (above mentioned advantages versus most likely higher cost than the stick frame)?
3. are there different types of SIPs I should consider?
4. are any local manufacturers recommended?
5. are any local SIP experienced framers recommended?
6. something makes me think I should contact SIP manufacturer before finalizing me design and structural - am I correct?

any comments are appreciated

Martin

Posted By MartinPL on 09 May 2013 07:17 PM
This will be my third house built: first was definitely better than for my enemy, second could be bought by any friend of mine, and this third one will be definitely for me for longer time.  I plan on living in it for a while.  And this is why I want to build it wisely.  Now it will be smaller (considering my existing one) and it's supposed to be a triple E: ergonomics, efficiency, economics.  3,100 sq. ft. to be located just easy of Issaquah on a slightly sloping (towards North West) lot.  Footprint: 45 ft X 95 ft with the main level shaped like a letter 'C' and 2 bedrooms/bathrooms on the second floor.  Large courtyard in the belly of 'C'.  Mediterranean style with fairly simple wall arrangement lower pitch roof (no cathedral ceilings) and stucco and stone exterior finish.  Definitely radiant heated floors (some 6 or 7 zones) and a simple AC with an HRV.  The plans are now generic and need minor modifications to suit out needs.  Structural needs to be done to meet local codes.  SIPs are highly considered due to:

1. sturdiness (I hate shifting and not straight walls)
2. insulation (I like the idea of envelope closed conditioned space)
3. lower waste
4. quicker construction time

I have few questions:

1. should I even consider SIP roof?  There will be no cathedral ceilings. I don't want to spend extra $$$ for cold-roof.  Roof design is fairly simple and can be easily constructed using trusses and "standard' methods.  Roof material will be either some sort of tile or metal (imitating tile)
2. will I really be better off using SIPs (above mentioned advantages versus most likely higher cost than the stick frame)?
3. are there different types of SIPs I should consider?
4. are any local manufacturers recommended?
5. are any local SIP experienced framers recommended?
6. something makes me think I should contact SIP manufacturer before finalizing me design and structural - am I correct?

any comments are appreciated

Martin

MartinPL,
If you dont want a cathedral, then run SIP's in the flat for the ceilings and convetionally frame roof with rafters as done in the following link SIPs for roof

Posted By cmkavala on 09 May 2013 07:29 PM
... MartinPL,
If you dont want a cathedral, then run SIP's in the flat for the ceilings and convetionally frame roof with rafters as done in the following link SIPs for roof

Great idea.  Did not think about it.  It will enclose the structure nicely from the top and I'll frame the roof and vent it.  No fluffy stuff either - cool!!!  Thx!!!

In Issaquah's foggy dew & rain driven climate take extra care to fully ventilate behind stucco & stone siding or your exterior OSB skin will be toast in under 2 decades. A few miles north of you Vancouver 10mm rainscreen gaps (vented at both the top & bottom is best) are required behind ANY siding type, but "reservoir" cladding like masonry/stone/stucco needs it more than most, especially with OSB sheathing/skins. These claddings are prone to wicking up and storing rain & dew moisture, and releasing it in intense bursts when the sun breaks out, and unless there's space to convect that super-moist air out, some of it will end up in the OSB, no matter what you use for underlayment.

Due to the higher amount of exposed end grain OSB adsorbs moisture at higher rates than CDX or plank- it's a real issue for PNW climates west of the Cascades. Treated right OSB will last forever, but you can't let it get or stay wet- you need to maximize it's drying capacity. Even if it's not a mold inducing levels, you let it stay at some intermediate moisture content, don't be too surprised when the carpenter ants move in- they'll bore through the OSB and turn the EPS into both a nesting ground and super-highway- they're damned near impossible to get rid of in SIPs once they're established, but it they can usually be avoided by keeping the OSB bone-dry. Rainscreened siding may become local code in western WA in coming years too- it's made a real difference in the mold hazard on new construction in B.C., including OSB sheathed structures.

For some discussion of stucco over OSB in a PNW climate see:

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-058-parthenon

and

http://www.buildingscienceconsulting.com/presentations/documents/XV_Gauvin_Coquitlam_Test_Hut.pdf

Posted By Dana1 on 10 May 2013 12:11 PM
In Issaquah's foggy dew & rain driven climate take extra care to fully ventilate behind stucco & stone siding or your exterior OSB skin will be toast in under 2 decades. A few miles north of you Vancouver 10mm rainscreen gaps (vented at both the top & bottom is best) are required behind ANY siding type, but "reservoir" cladding like masonry/stone/stucco needs it more than most, especially with OSB sheathing/skins. These claddings are prone to wicking up and storing rain & dew moisture, and releasing it in intense bursts when the sun breaks out, and unless there's space to convect that super-moist air out, some of it will end up in the OSB, no matter what you use for underlayment.

Due to the higher amount of exposed end grain OSB adsorbs moisture at higher rates than CDX or plank- it's a real issue for PNW climates west of the Cascades. Treated right OSB will last forever, but you can't let it get or stay wet- you need to maximize it's drying capacity. Even if it's not a mold inducing levels, you let it stay at some intermediate moisture content, don't be too surprised when the carpenter ants move in- they'll bore through the OSB and turn the EPS into both a nesting ground and super-highway- they're damned near impossible to get rid of in SIPs once they're established, but it they can usually be avoided by keeping the OSB bone-dry. Rainscreened siding may become local code in western WA in coming years too- it's made a real difference in the mold hazard on new construction in B.C., including OSB sheathed structures.

For some discussion of stucco over OSB in a PNW climate see:

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-058-parthenon

and

http://www.buildingscienceconsulting.com/presentations/documents/XV_Gauvin_Coquitlam_Test_Hut.pdf

Very good points.  I am definitely going to have the ventilated rainscreen gap installed under the stucco and stone.  One thing thou - if there is any possibility of SIPs getting wet it would be a nightmare to replace them; standard stick construction seems easier to be repaired.

Posted By MartinPL on 10 May 2013 01:51 PM

Very good points.  I am definitely going to have the ventilated rainscreen gap installed under the stucco and stone.  One thing thou - if there is any possibility of SIPs getting wet it would be a nightmare to replace them; standard stick construction seems easier to be repaired.

Have you looked at metal SIPs? They are an alternative if you are concerned about rot/moisture issues.

Martin,

You might want to consider metal skin SIPs to avoid insect and water damage. No, I do not sell SIPs or any product.

Both metal sips and SCIPs make sense (logically, perhaps not practically) to me in wet climates. In dryer climates, I think that conventional framing + rigid foam + cellulose saves money and can be straight, sturdy, well insulated and pretty quick.

Posted By MartinPL on 10 May 2013 01:51 PM

Very good points.  I am definitely going to have the ventilated rainscreen gap installed under the stucco and stone.  One thing thou - if there is any possibility of SIPs getting wet it would be a nightmare to replace them; standard stick construction seems easier to be repaired.

That's exactly what happened to this home, it was an OSB SIP wall that got rotted, not an easy $$$ fix: Energy Vanguard

Do you notice that the house Lbear shows in his picture doesn't have any eaves? Would you build this house in Seattle with any kind of construction? Do your research and use good building practices. Vent the walls and the roof and do everything you can to keep the moisture off and give everything a drying path. Seal all seams on the inside. PAY ATTENTION TO DETAIL. Read posts on this forum back 5+ years there is a lot of good stuff back there. Read "Structural insulated panels" by Morley. Also read "Builders guide to structural insulated panels by Lstiburek. All types of construction has its own inherent problems including metal sips. I am not saying do not consider the use of metal sips I think that they are a viable alternative just Don't let people with an agenda discourage you.

Posted By vb on 16 May 2013 10:30 PM
Do you notice that the house Lbear shows in his picture doesn't have any eaves? Would you build this house in Seattle with any kind of construction? Do your research and use good building practices. Vent the walls and the roof and do everything you can to keep the moisture off and give everything a drying path. Seal all seams on the inside. PAY ATTENTION TO DETAIL. Read posts on this forum back 5+ years there is a lot of good stuff back there. Read "Structural insulated panels" by Morley. Also read "Builders guide to structural insulated panels by Lstiburek. All types of construction has its own inherent problems including metal sips. I am not saying do not consider the use of metal sips I think that they are a viable alternative just Don't let people with an agenda discourage you.

No agenda here. I don't work for or represent any SIP company (metal or wood). I was responding to the question posed which had to do with if an OSB SIP rots, how do you fix it? I left a link to an article that talked about such an issue. If you would have taken the minute to click the link you would have seen that the article talked about why there was rot and how they went about fixing it. The SIPS weren't defective, they became defective due to a lack of a moisture barrier and poor flashing.

With that being said, call SIPA and ask them about metal SIPs and they will NOT provide you with any information on them. Wood SIPS get plenty of advertising. Do a Google search on the word "SIPS or SIP Panels" and good luck finding metal SIPS until like page #4 or beyond. I didn't even know metal SIPS existed until someone mentioned them on this forum.

Hi Martin: With regard to your Question #4: Both Premier and Precision Panel produce SIPS in this (Seattle) area. I had Precision Panel replace the shell of an old pole barn on my property with SIPS 5 or 6 years ago and I was very satisfied with their work. I now have a nice garage that matches my house (aesthetically - the house is not SIPS). Also, Shirey Construction is right there in Issaquah, and I believe they use Enercept panels for their SIPS projects. They recently constructed a high efficiency house using SIPS on Lake Sammamish that I believe they open up for tours occasionally. With regard to your Question #6: Absolutely - I would coordinate closely with your SIPS supplier.